Information Summer 2020 Balance Changes [Explained]

Shouldn't it be balanced by making buccs stronger than warriors considering the lack of stance?

 

Using this logic both heroes and paladins are useless in PB because NLs out dpm them by a fair amount(legitimately they might both be irrelevant since you need higher dpm). Why on earth are you using a unreleased unknown stat boss to argue about the current state of paladins?

 

It still resists physical, so that means paladin would still do half damage (like every other normal attacker). But i guess this makes FP and I/L mages on par with normal attackers since the other attackers have their damage halved.

 

Because you're arguing against the intention of class specialization in this game. Heroes cleave, that's their specialty. Paladins have elemental advantages, that's their specialty. Complaining that they're less valuable to heroes in one facet of one boss is a dumb way to pigeon hole your argument, which was shown by the transfer of the logic in your argument for HT to pink bean.

Hate to break it to you, but Paladins and Heroes aren't useless for Pink Bean, just like they both aren't useless for HT.

As for the current state of Paladins: they're now less specialized in cleaving than Heroes. They're where they should be. However, I'm in favor of slight buffs to holy charge because it doesn't make sense that a 4th job skill is weaker than 3rd job.

 

Then don't skip over the argument that elemental advantage is straight useless for a large majority of content in the game. My original post said as much. Paladins now are only good for NT/Scar which in my experienced opinion no where near makes up for their deficiencies elsewhere.

Also there is a legitimate chance both Paladins and Heros are useless for Pink Bean if it's released with the same timer as GMS but it's useless to talk about an unreleased boss.

 

Heroes are not as good as Paladins for NT/Scar. Should they get buffed?

 

Palis only win out in single target using fire or element neutral attacks. They lose 1/7th of their damage if they're using lightning on a lightning neutral enemy. "hero's can't cleave so they're useless" is a pretty stupid argument compared to "palis are going to have every element resisted meaning they're unable to do damage". Especially since palis are probably only 1/7th stronger than hero's single target damage according to that chart.

It seems clear you're not arguing in good faith or capable of making reasonable arguments, I won't be continuing the convo further with you.

I was not aware pb was lightning neutral, I clearly misread.

 

Sure. Heros can get buffed for NT/Scar, Pallys can get buffed for HT/CWK and they can both be relevant and useful for all end game content(something that I want for all classes). Sounds good to me.

You make it sound like being good at NT/Scar is the blessed life or something. I'd happily give up any elemental advantage on those bosses if it meant an even playing field.

 

Are you suggesting that heroes and paladins are already not useful for end game content, including HT?
Slight buffs, sure. But admit that the old heavens hammer was OP as shit and this nerf wasn't just about HH mules.

 

Threaten is not a good utility. -100 def amounts to, essentially, increasing attackers' damage range by 50. On a bowmaster who fires 500 shots of 256% per minute, this comes out to 64k dpm. Other classes benefit can vary wildly depending on skill multiplier and buffs but it should be around 50k-100k in most classes. When you're soloing threaten is barely worth the time it takes to use, and even in party play the difference it makes is almost negligible.

 

Every post I make clearly outlines my opinion that by nerfing HH and providing no compensation Paladins become the worst attacking class at HT. There is no damage/efficiency/utility reason to bring one.

Yes HH wasn't in the best state but taking it out with no other compensation wasn't the way to go about fixing it.

 

Are you part of a normal HT group that runs frequently? Did you lose your spot to these coordinated runs because of the nerfs?
The only people I know who lost their spots are low level (<155) Paladins who were there entirely for HH. All others I know haven't lost their spot because 12 mans are already hard enough to coordinate. If you were part of a 6 man squad, you were probably already strong enough to carry yourself anyways, otherwise you would have been outclassed by your other squad members bringing HH mules.

The best suggestion I've seen here, imo, is lowering the time it takes to cast HH so that it doesn't compete against your single target damage. Doing 1.2m dpm from HH alone isn't something to scoff at, and it contributes to cleave damage overall, allowing for more unique party comps.

 

Sorry to break it to you, but Corsairs are probably the worst early game. Put a fresh level 155 sair into HT and just watch their boat melt away. After that what do they have? They just become budget BMs with their dinky rapid fire.

 

I can't really make any statements on experience, but based on what I've been reading lowering the cast time of HH would be a decent option as a compensation buff. It wouldn't increase the damage per minute for the purposes of mules, but would increase damage per minute for mains that choose to cast it as they will have more time to cast blast. The only issues I see is that I'm pretty sure changing the delay/animation of a skill is one of the kinds of changes which require coding rather than just number tweaking.

I also like the idea of somehow buffing threaten to be a more useful debuff. It seems most people are put off by how clunky it is to use so maybe increasing its duration (should be easy if my understanding is correct) or increasing its range significantly would be welcome, thought it might also need a small potency buff to go with it. If you could consistently have a relevant, but small, increase to the party's damage on each segment of a boss I think it could increase a paladin's damage over the whole duration of a run enough to warrant taking one for HT. This would only be the case if it was easy to keep up the debuff without losing too much dpm up-time, and I don't know the relevance it would have in CWKPQ.

 

Threaten is pretty likely a % debuff to a monster's attack. Honestly it seems like many Paladins don't even know it's mainly a tanking skill for when you're face-tanking anything as it's a great melee support skill. I'd rather duo cwkpq with a Paladin than any other melee as the damage reduction is pretty significant for just letting me use auto-pot.

It also doesn't sound like there's enough understanding of warrior cleave in HT. There's maybe 6-8 minutes of full 3 part cleave in HT. Legs/Arm/Wings is the only 100% certain 3hit. Head going up and arm going down on the right side is a missed attack, in total I'd estimate it's overall 2.4-2.5 parts cleaved per attack as the arm moves often. When head is canceled you jump down for 2hit cleave. When wings go down you're left with 1.5 parts to cleave. With head canceled/dead you're back to 1 part as you jump down for arm. Then back on the left side of HT your best cleave option at that point is to jump attack head/arm in time with the arm's movements, leaving you with around 1.2-1.3x effectiveness at best. With left arm dead the best option is mid head, and when left head goes up you get an extra attack. It's maybe 1.1 hits per attack. If a person really wants to get into the nitty-gritty the locations cleave stand in are significantly worse than the spots single-target DPS stands in, leading to a lot more lost time as you get back into position. Optimal cleave for most HT runs is only about a third of the fight. After that your effectiveness is drastically reduced.

HH never really did any of that. It acted more like a mage cleave than a warrior cleave, as it has absolutely none of the drawbacks of other cleave classes, all it really measured were parts up without taking into account their location or movement, and always sat in the optimal location.

It also doesn't sound like people didn't pay enough attention the the original post of this thread either. Some people are close but they haven't put all of the pieces together yet.

 

When will stance not be a lie? epehands:

 

I'm gonna stop posting soon because we are just talking in circles about the same points and its pretty clear you guys want to wait 3 months to see where Paladins are at (hint it won't be a great spot).

However do you know what also saves pots at cwkpq? Killing the bosses faster. Something that heroes do much much better then Paladins in cwk. Paladins aren't even horrifically bad at cwk per say but that point just stuck out to me as silly.

Your second point about cleave vs single target has also been addressed many times. If a Paladin is going to be a single-target damage dealer don't compare it to the other warrior classes that cleave. Compare it to other single-target damage dealers. Compare its dpm to that of NLs, BM, MM etc and what utility they offer. That's what a lot of posts in this thread have already talked about in detail. DrK/Heroes etc ability to cleave might not be relevant for the entire fight but the fact that they do cleave is a desired asset that assists in killing HT effectively and timely. If you are trying to say cleave doesn't truly matter that much at HT I will say that's just not true. Especially in low-mid tier skill/gear level runs.

 

I made 0 of those arguments

 

What of those classes that you mentioned allow you to easily Horntail at an early level with little to no investment in HP washing and gear? Who's going to invite a lvl 155 NL hitting 3 digit lines? Whereas a lvl 155 Paladin can still get a guaranteed 1.2m dpm just from one skill while using the sword you got from Maple Island?

 

I'd rather duo cwkpq with a Paladin than any other melee as the damage reduction is pretty significant for just letting me use auto-pot.
Optimal cleave for most HT runs is only about a third of the fight. After that your effectiveness is drastically reduced.

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You literally said you'd rather duo with a Paladin over a hero at cwk.
You literally said after 2/3 of the HT fight cleave isn't as important trying to convince us that somehow makes Paladins ok.

I've talked about easier washing being one of the positives of a Paladin several times I don't disagree on that point. I'm ALL FOR nerfing HH in its old form if there is somehow compensation to another aspect of the Paladin class to make up for the gaping hole it leaves behind.



It's absolutely insane to me some of the game balancers are so nonchalant about this change. This change is huge. I've talked to Paladin of all levels and variety and pretty much every single one of them thinks the change as is with no other alterations to any other paladin skill was a mistake. We aren't all just selfish pricks trying to get as much dps as possible most of us actually care about one of the most unrepresented classes in the game and want the best for it.