Information Summer 2020 Balance Changes [Explained]

I understand where you are coming from but there really isn't anything to test. Paladins will no longer be using HH at horntail. This is a fact. As a result they will lose significant value likely to the point where they will be one of if not the worst classes to bring.

No one is defending HH mules. We wanted them gone. But I'm not sure this was the way to go about it.

Here's a question: If HH mules somehow never existed would you have still nerfed HH? I feel like the answer is no. So then why punish Paladin mains for fixing something unrelated to them?

 

Let's give it a try. Thanks again guys. Excited for whatever you all cook up next!

 

> nerf a core skill for bossing to the point where it's no longer usable
> someone asks for the SP to be refunded
"Stop demanding compensation"

OBVIOUSLY MEMING, don't take that seriously

If you destroy an entire playstyle by making a skill useless outside of two situations, why are you surprised someone wants to be able to reinvest those SP into other skills that now provide better value? Sure, in the past you nerfed the hammer by 1/3rd (10s vs 15s) but when you consider that on top of that you're now nerfing it by an additional 75%, it's no longer a functional skill. It's kind of insulting to claim we need to get into the game in order to see how it works. It's a 75% damage nerf on a skill that attacks so slow it's no longer worth using, simple math.

It's not like a user can reasonably expect to be able to re-invest those SP on their own, as it's a literal 120k+ nx investment, aka almost a month of voting. I would either have to quit the character for month, or even permanantly. By the time I have the nx saved up, another balance patch might come through and "fix" the skill, which I highly doubt, as it seems obvious you're no longer interested in palis being able to use hammer for anything but showlin / nt, aka wreking their class identity. I just spent literally probably a hundred+ hours getting the t10 ring on my pali (literally finished the morning the patch started), I maxed out the characters equip, use, and etc. inventory slots, and multiple other things. I don't want to quit that character, I was looking forward to getting it to the point were I could participate in the parts of NT that (allegedly) aren't cancer (the bossing).

I get you're busy, and mabye not everyone expresses that they're grateful, I'm sure they are for new content etc.. There's always going to be negativity around an update where such a heavy nerf occurs, especially with no corresponding buff or even trying to alleviate the situation by allowing users to respec based on the new conditions of the playing environment.

 

Every single NT boss is a single target situation where you would not be using heavens hammer as your main source of damage in the first place.

 

I get that, I mainly meant in regards to zak (arms), cwk, and ht.

 

same thing happened to Summons on last patch..
they 'd nerfed the Summons 70% due to afk heartstopper farming
so all classes with Summons (bahamut / phoenix etc) got punished for fixing something unrelated to them
no SP compensation too.. sounds familiar..?

 

Para empezar HH ya era muy OP en comparación a lo que debía ser por que en realidad el tiempo de reutilizacion en un inicio fue de 30 segundos, no es el fin del mundo, si ya jugaste esta clase y tienes experiencia lo mejor seria plantear alternativas razonables para no perder el equilibrio de daño en tu paly

 

not really a response but a google translate which I believe should be repeated.

To begin with, HH was already very OP compared to what it should be because in reality the cooldown at the beginning was 30 seconds, it is not the end of the world, if you have already played this class and have experience, the best thing would be to propose alternatives reasonable so as not to lose the balance of damage on your pally - Romel

 

I don't disagree, mabye 30s would have been a better solution, but it would have still been a pretty huge nerf (50% effectiveness compared to current / 33% effectiveness compared to previous patches). As it stands now it's 25% effective compared to current / 16.67% compared to previous. This nerf is extreme enough that the skill is no longer functional for bossing. Even if they reimplemented it as 30s now, they likely would have eventually taken this drastic measure again in the future.

Just spitballing, one idea would be to reduce elemental advantage damage to closer to 125 or 130%, while increasing blast and acb damage in order to reduce the reliance on elemental advantages, while hopefully not nerfing them for NT. I'm not sure what the balance there would be but I'm sure it could be figured out. I could also see the % from elemental advantages being pretty hardcoded cuz Neckson

The problem is there was 0 community involvement in regards to the patch / how until literally the day the patch details were released. As a result, there was 0 time to provide input / other suggestions of how to fix it, and we were essentially blindsided. In addition the current patch provides no level of buff to support the class, just screws them over with the hollow promise of "we'll buff you later." In addition, judging by how my requests was described as "demanding compensation" it seems unlikely they'll fix the fact that so many palis now have 30 points in a useless skill in most situations.

(google translate)
No estoy en desacuerdo, mabye 30s habría sido una mejor solución, pero aún así habría sido un nerf bastante grande (50% de efectividad en comparación con la efectividad actual / 33% de efectividad en comparación con parches anteriores). Tal como está ahora, es un 25% efectivo en comparación con el actual / 16.67% en comparación con el anterior. Este nerf es lo suficientemente extremo como para que la habilidad ya no sea funcional para mandar. Incluso si lo volvieran a implementar como 30 ahora, es probable que eventualmente hubieran tomado esta drástica medida nuevamente en el futuro.

Solo escupiendo, una idea sería reducir el daño de ventaja elemental a más de 125 o 130%, mientras aumenta el daño de explosión y acb para reducir la dependencia de las ventajas elementales, mientras que con suerte no las debilitará para NT. No estoy seguro de cuál sería el equilibrio, pero estoy seguro de que podría resolverse. También pude ver que el% de las ventajas elementales está bastante codificado porque Neckson

El problema es que no hubo participación de la comunidad con respecto al parche / cómo hasta, literalmente, el día en que se publicaron los detalles del parche. Como resultado, no hubo tiempo para proporcionar información / otras sugerencias sobre cómo solucionarlo, y esencialmente nos sorprendió. Además, el parche actual no proporciona ningún nivel de mejora para apoyar a la clase, simplemente los arruina con la promesa vacía de "te mejoraremos más tarde". Además, a juzgar por la forma en que mis solicitudes se describieron como "exigiendo compensación", parece poco probable que solucionen el hecho de que tantos palis ahora tienen 30 puntos en una habilidad inútil en la mayoría de las situaciones.

 

ENGLISH
Hi nise, i hope you read this. I was reading your last post and the previous post, looking how the people are losing their minds by those sudden changes about SI & HH and i want to suggest you some things from my own point of view.

The point is that i was so familiarized with the paladin skills of the old school, even here my second attacker is a 175 paladin washed and polished to the max. I am concious of the heavy work that balancing a class, its being talk that the pally will lost his identity as a class, but here the main problem is "eliminate" the HH mules that damaged so much the pally mains, before starting with my suggestions is that before this changes i was feeling satisfied with my pally but lowering the hh in a 75% its very drastic, idk what direction have the ML staff planned to move this class but in my opinion it should be mantained like how it was long time ago in its glory days, a warrior with hh only for supporting more than spamming.
My suggestions:
It should be restabilished the usage of HH each 30 seconds or increase the re-use time mantaining the 199K in HT to reduce the repetitive use of this skill in a point that the mulea cant help with much damage. Without eclipsing the main pallies. The reason its simple. The dpm 45 of the hh mules will get shorter without having to recode hh in base of STR what was said its much, im concious that it will not eliminate entirely problem with those mules but it will be more benefic for a main pally and more perjuditial for a mule. I know its more easy ajusting the time of re-use of hh. This change will affect the training of the pally outside bossing and here comes my point 2. Long time ago the element charges of the 3rd job but not 4th and my question was: why the holy charge wasnt improved? If you re going to tell me this is a useless skill my answer its no. This one was mainly charge to neutral monsters and skeles and because its a 4th job skill it should have more damage than the 3rd job skills. My suggestion is that the holy charge it should be revived adding more % in benefit of the pally attackers. So the main pallies can have their dpm increased in compensation on increasing the cooldown of hh and reinforsing the cleave damage. This is what it got in its day and what i propose



When giving them an strong charge, Holy charge and increasing the damage % of advanced charge they will become practically like heroes at neutral mobs and they will compensate they damage for early training with other chargers without depending on HH with the advantage instead of throwing one at lv max for example each 60 secs.

the third point its refering about CWKPQ, if in theory you increase % of holy charge and/or Advanced charge you should take off the inmunity to the holy element of rellik and Hsalf to deal the damage more efficientely on this 3 bosses. of this PQ Rellik (Weak to fire)/ Hsalf (debil al hielo) / Red Nirg. the reason is that when the 3 of them are together the ACB its decent, the problem is that the ones that are weak on one element die first and when there are 2 bosses left the ACB losses eficiency and blast doesnt compensate it completely. in difference when we use holy charge attacking the 3 of them like a hero. I dont see any problem of taking off the holy inmunity because a bishop cant hit even from far because the stun of Rellik
By last I know I asked for it before but it would be cool too fix the graphics of the elements that a paladin use for other players can see them more stylish and they get motivated to try this marvelous class.
Extras
Regarding the new formula that it going to be applied with the buccaners its excelent and I'm waiting for the future benefit on damage that you promise. actually demolition its very well balanced but I think you may increase it a bit more. the thing that worries me its then im not transformed barrage + any other skill doesnt equal to the damage on demolition and it feels like the damage its too low. so i suggest that you increase barrage, double uppercut and dragon strike damage.
Regarding to the SI i think fixing the problems of the application of SI + Booster it should resolve many problems. and it should work with spell booster and in the case on bishops to be equal. it should be fair that they get SI

ESPAÑOL
Tenia planeado subirlo traducido pero mientras mas antes mas personas lo verán, es libre de usar un traductor, espero se entienda lo que quiero transmitir
Hola Nisse espero que leas esto, estaba leyendo este tu ultimo post en el foro y otro post anterior, viendo como la gente pierde la cabeza por cambios tan repentinos acerca de SI & HH y quiera sugerirte algunas cosas desde mi punto de vista.

El punto es que estuve muy familiarizado con las habilidades de los Palys vieja escuela incluso aquí mi segundo atacante es un paladín 175 lavado y pulido al máximo, soy consciente del trabajo pesado que es equilibrar un personaje, se está hablando de que el paly perderá su identidad como personaje, pero aquí el problema principal es “eliminar” las HH mulas que ya tanto daño hicieron a los main palys, antes de empezar con mis sugerencias quiero decir que me siento hasta antes de estos cambios satisfecho con mi Paly pero bajar el HH un 75% fue drástico, no sé a qué dirección tiene el personal de ML planeado mover a esta clase pero en mi opinión debería mantenerse como lo que fue hace mucho tiempo en sus días de gloria, un guerrero con un HH solo de apoyo más que de spam

Mis sugerencias:

Se debería restablecer el uso de HH cada 30 segundos o aumentar el tiempo de reutilización mantener los 199k en HT para disminuir el uso repetitivo de esta habilidad en las HH mulas a un punto en que ya no aporten mucho daño, sin opacar a los paladines principales ; la razón es simple se acortaría el dpm 45 de HH mulas sin tener que recodificar HH en base a str que ya se dijo es difícil codificarlo, soy consciente que esto no eliminaría por completo esas mulas pero sería más beneficioso para un main paly y más perjudicial para una mula, se que es más fácil ajustar el tiempo de reutilización de HH; este cambio afectaría al entrenamiento del paladín fuera de bossing y aquí entra mi punto 2

Hace mucho tiempo se mejoró las cargas de elementos del 3er trabajo, pero no del 4to y mi pregunta fue, ¿Por qué no mejoro Holy charge? Si me vas a decir que era una habilidad inútil mi respuesta será que no, esta principalmente servía como carga para monstruos neutrales y skeles y por ser una habilidad de un 4to job debe tener más daño que las del 3er job, la sugerencia es que holy charge debería revivir aumentándole un poco más de% en beneficio de los ataker paladin, para que los palys principales puedan aumentar su dpm como compensación a alargar el coldown de HH y reforzar el daño cleave dandoles un aire refrescante al usar holy charge, esto fue lo que salió en su día y lo que propongo



Al darles una carga más fuerte, holy charge, y aumentar el% del Advanced Charge se volverían prácticamente como héroes en mobs neutrales y compensarían su daño para entrenamiento temprano con otras cargas sin depender mucho de HH con la ventaja de vez en cuando lanzar uno a lv max, por ejemplo cada 60 segundos

El tercer punto es referente al cwkpq, si en teoría se aumentaría% de holy charge y / o Advanced Charge se debería eliminar la inmunidad a elemento santo en Rellik y Hsalf para poder repartir daño más eficientemente en estos tres jefes de este PQ Rellik (débil al fuego) / Hsalf (débil al hielo) / Red Nirg, la razón es que cuando están los 3 el ACB es decente, el problema es con los que son débiles a un elelemto y mueren primero, cuando quedan 2 boss ACB se desperdicia y Blast no compensa por completo, a diferencia de que se usaría un holy charge atacando los 3 boss como si se tratase de un héroe, no veo ningún problema al quitarles la inmunidad a santo porque ni siquiera un bs puede pegar de lejos por el stun de Rellik

Por último sé que lo pedí antes pero sería bueno arreglar los gráficos de los elementos que usa un paladín para que otros jugadores puedan verlos más llamativos y se animen a probar esta maravillosa clase

EXTRAS

Referente a la nueva fórmula que se aplicara a los bucaneros me parece excelente, y espero con ansias el futuro beneficio en daño que se prometió, actualmente demolición me parece muy bien equilibrado aun que podría subir solo un poco más, lo que me preocupa es cuando no estoy transformado barrange + cualquier habilidad no iguala el daño de demolición y se siente que el daño es muy bajo, así que sugeriría que se aumente daño a barrange, Double uppercout y dragón strike y el att de energy charge pueda sumarse a aples stews, etc.

Referente al SI pienso que arreglar los problemas de apilacion SI + Bosster solucionaría varios problemas y podría además funcionar con spell boster, en el caso de los BS para ser equitativo sería justo que si obtengan SI, pero al no tener spell boster tantos un poco más lentos pero aún se beneficiarían por ser solicitados en runs como zk o ht

Si llegaste hasta este punto gracias por leer mis sugerencias

PD: revivir la carga sagrada

 

Huh. So in the end, it was all about the HH mules anyway. Pretty disheartening to say the least.

And yeah if you're gonna say "why yall acting like you got some combos" well, 2 buttons is 100% more than 1 button, and also this might be personal but maple is a fantasy rpg, in fantasy rpgs you want your character to use cool skills like HH. Just flat out making it useless in bossing is just so ugly. Last time in bossing if you look at a bunch of maplers hitting ht or zak arms, it's very easy to identify the Paladin- he'd be casting his hammer. Now all you get is him melding into the crowd of single button pushers doing the same thing for 2 hours.

Furthermore forgive me but I completely cant understand what kind of numbers we need to observe to see how the nerf affect the change. I posted this before but this ain't dota/league or starcraft, and it's not like your extreme nerf came with any other buff to shake things up. It was just a flat out demolition of a key skill that contributed damage, as much as 75% in fact. What is there to test? Perhaps mid tier paladins (level 165-180) will suddenly start blasting and then say "wow actually when I just blast, it turns out I'm stronger than the hammer!"

Ok in the end I'm salty that this move was mqde because a character I have had for over 3 years, the only character I've ever had any interest in playing, has been nerfed to the ground because of the HH mule problem. And then balance team basically tells us to stop whining.

Like I said, I've always hated knee jerk responses and tried to be on staff's side (because they know much more than the average discord/forum noob), just go check my forum post history. It's not like I'm unable to appreciate the work put in by staff, on a VOLUNTARY basis. But in this case, it's just flat out disheartening that a whole class of very dedicated players can get nuked out due to a mule situation, and the responses are "if you can do better pls apply balance team" and "you gotta test damage first (in a pure 75% nerf) or else you are just whining and adding stress"

I'm sorry if this comes across as rude, believe me I have no intention of doing so. But the whole response just feels patronizing, when you can nerf a whole class, then tell them that they don't know better and this is the best case for everyone.

 

First off I'll state that I am beyond the most mild casual player so these changes do not effect me in the least bit. However I don't understand you're(Staff members) reasoning. So to prevent people from abusing/taking advantage of multi clienting and making mules that aren't actually played and are "exploited" for unnatural advantages in the game, you nerf a a class harming actually legitimate players that want to play their character? Would the easiest solution to HH mules be just not allowing them, or mules in general in boss runs?(Or HH mules being the only non allowed one)

Yall do a great job it's just seems like an odd solution to me.

 

REVIVE HOLY CHARGE TO PALADINS

-Increases single target dmg to compensate for the Nerf in HH
-There's no holy weak bosses in the game, so bosses outside of HT are unaffected

Romel YOU ARE THE HERO WE DONT DESERVE

 

I agree, making holy the main use skill outside of ele advantage situations would make a lot of sense. Though to note the crow is technically holy weak, and one or two forms of an unreleased NT boss are, but I don't think that's particularly relevant at this time.

 

Nise already mentioned that buffing Blast in some way is difficult because it will run into the 199k cap.

 

Technically that's only true if "some way" is a flat damage increase.
Shadow partner for palis when?

 

While I certainly agree with a lot of your points here and I think that I need to actually test out these changes in game to have an accurate opinion, I do have 1 quick question.

In exchange for the heavens hammer nerf, have staffed considered increasing its cast speed? Currently, we lose about 4 blast attacks due to the long delay of casting hammer. If you can shorten this delay to 1 blast or 1 acb, it would at least make the skill similar to snipe where high level paladins would still want to use the skill during some boss situations.

As it stands, once you get to a certain point, you outscale heavens hammer, and it becomes wasteful to use it and not just keep blasting.

 

Correct me if i'm wrong. It would be really hard for paladins to reach the dmg cap on a non-elemental weak boss. Even with a buff to Holy Charge, there shouldn't be an issue or possibility of reaching the dmg cap. Maybe a high level paladin can attest to this?

And as fritzpud mentioned above, the only holy weak boss in game is Crow

EDIT: Kachuu too. thanks BananaPie

 

Well there's also samurai but the two are not usually considered when talking about bossing anyway.

Agree above on the cast speed and buffing holy charge.