The reason why our ToS needs to change

I'm as confused as you, idk, im just saying im willing to do it if possible but I doubt it is. Raso said earlier that it can be done but that's disingenuous. I guess the question is if the person that does it receives a punishment or not?

 

I could probably accept Skarm's final ban if there was just a smidge of honesty about it. It started from a conclusion, looked upon the evidence without a critical eye, and applied punishment regardless of merit. I could respect if the answer were as simple as an application of the last line of the ToS, but it was dressed to the nines and fitted with every retroactive change possible. Maybe it would be better if Vowels were to post the conclusion of the PB-spy ban, where the GMs clearly stated that Skarm had 1 strike in every harassment category of a 3 strike system, but upon the next incident finding most of his accounts permanently banned. In such a case can we even trust that the ToS can be fairly and objectively applied to all players?

Even in the final incident, who were the main players in the harassment? There was the screenshot of Skarm, but was he even the one who was at the forefront, or was he replying to another in the depths of discussion? Was Skarm even the one with any power to include or exclude players from a run? If these questions aren't able to be answered then what hope is there that they paint a clear enough picture of an individual to justify an essentially permanent ban? That is my case for Skarmory and my case against a poorly applied Terms of Service. The historic biases, along with numerous retroactive policy changes to fit for cases against individuals necessitates a much more lax system to curb inherently biased judgements and to accept that there is nuance to harassment. If Skarm is to be banned then may it be for the last line of the ToS, it is cowardly to go back on the strikes he had previously acquired and stuck to and to say that they collectively justified the bans that followed.

 

First of all your memory is bad, I recall you ran with us and we called you DrBased for clearing PB without HB and without dying, you also didn't show up to the second run without warning.
Second and related to your inquiries, it's been agreed that the situation deserved a ban so there's no controversy because we mutually think that one was whack. The controversy of the thread is centered on privacy.

 

This is pretty unrelated to everything else but it's amusing he was able to successfully appeal that ban, which everyone universally agrees was a pretty egregious grief, but what ended up getting him in the end was imo a relatively weak harassment case. He deserved stricter punishment for the former and less punishment for the latter, imo.

 

I don't really have much stake in any of these discussions, but I will say this much: don't let cliques run the show. I've been in enough niche communities to see what happens, and it always ends poorly.

Popularity/"community relevance"/whatever the hell else you decide to call it should have zero impact whatsoever as to whether or not someone should be punished for their actions. Don't care if you're personal friends with the entire moderation team; that should confer no special privileges whatsoever. People should not be given a position of authority based on friendship with people who already have it, or anything of the sort. Additionally, no one should escape punishment because moderators "fear the backlash" due to any sort of accrued status that the person might have, whether due to friend circles or being a moderator themselves.

As for what should and should not count, I disagree completely with "only the communication on the official forum/Discord should be allowed to count". If someone decides to start DMing me on Discord with harassment, they should not magically escape punishment because they did it over DMs and not in public. That would be asinine.

I will say, though, that simply talking shit about someone behind their back isn't harassment. Harassment has to actually be felt by the victim in some way. If someone finds out that someone was talking shit about them behind their back, that's not harassment either in itself (though depending on how they found out, it could be, such as whether the person doing the shit-talking, or one of their friends, presented said shit-talking to the person as a way to attack them directly). Not liking someone is not actionable. Making someone feel like shit, is. I'll also say that talking shit about someone behind their back, while not actionable in itself, sure does make for some pretty great evidence that later behavior directed towards that person was, in fact, deliberate.

The point, though, is that it all starts with someone being an asshole to someone else directly. Without that, there's nothing.

Most of this is probably only loosely related to whatever else is being discussed here, but I felt it worthwhile to at least list my perspective on these sorts of things.

 

I think this is a great way of putting it. Talking negatively about someone in a private Discord shouldn't fall under harassment imo, but direct and targeted attacks should.

 

Just so we're clear, based on this Skarmory was banned by staff invoking their last line of ToS right? And not because of the 3 strike rule.


Thus creating the discussion on 3.3.3's privacy implications and the newly implemented 4 strike rule. Unsure if you're allowed to share staff's ruling, I'm just confused about the ban.

 

Are staff permitted to apply bans without warrant, for any reason?

If yes, will they be required to submit their reasonings alongside the ban before their submission is sent, given there is no reason should this mean there is reason to believe it is possible to resolve it without continuing forward?

If no, why?

 

Thinking back on the people who are upset about the Discord thing, there are some other cases I can think of where is just beyond "shit talking" being an issue:

• Doxxing someone on Legends on Discord
• Sexually harassing someone via discord

For the second point, I actually have heard from girls personally that they've been dm'd creepy things from legends dudes specifically on discord because the guys know that discord was not covered under the ToS until recently. They take it off the platform and harass legends girls on Snapchat or discord instead knowing that it is a loophole and they can say whatever they want without repercussion. Obviously it makes the girls uncomfortable to login because the guy in question is a high level player /powerfully connected etc. So it does impact their game experience.

Should this not count because it is done over discord? Even though it's between legends players and if said in game would result in a ban due to sexual harassment.

Regarding doxxing, one of my friends had their information doxxed from a group of legends players. It was not done in game. Or on the forum. They had a group chat that was on another platform, made up of entirely legends players, and my friends photos were shared against their will.

I am curious to hear your thoughts on this.

Should these things not be considered because they are "private" chats even though they are impacting legends players experience directly and are instigated by other legends players?

 

I'm actually horrified that Staff are in the know of these things and haven't made use of the last clause - as if the platform "loophole" carries any weight over the egregious nature of these occurrences.

 

As it indicates, staff used the last line of ToS as he would need another 2 bans in one of the sects to get an account ban. But he was permad on all his mains because of leaked prints for his own guild discord, leaks that only contained the act of expelling one player from his own guild run. Even if that last ban was fair, it wouldn’t justify the perma ban

 

who could tell you no, that's criminal behavior and these players should be terminated by the last line of ToS, not like anyone doing these things should be given a 1st offense 7 days ban right? Thread is mostly about the privacy of average players, criminals wrong doings are beyond being judged by ToS, the cases mentioned are just bad all around the internet.

 

That's because ML has historically protected these perpetrators via the public accusation rule under harassment and p2p messages under sharing private information. Something that has happened are facts and to silence the individuals whom are hurt by the actions imply the system has sided with the perpetrator. Legends is a small community; i'm sure it can self police if only facts can be established.

 

The girls never reported it because they were afraid of the consequences and that the guy would find out. So no report was ever done despite me arguing for them to do so. This happened years ago.

Similar to real life if you were confronted by someone who is very powerful, has many high-level friends, and holds a position of power in bossing cliques - it is easy for girls to feel intimidated and afraid to report.

Honestly I just see this update of 3.3.3 to close this kind of loophole.

 

I was sexually harassed by another ML player in Discord DMs and nothing was done about it, that is just one case that Mirrors may or may not be referring to.

 

That loophole never existed to begin with, and it's troubling that you're positing it as if it ever carried any weight, because it shows me that while Staff are willing to care more about the inane shit, something like a 'loophole' in the ToS could derail reports of sexual harassment or doxxing.

 

We can just agree to disagree, which is totally fine. For the record, I am speaking from my time before I was even a staff member, this happened to me a long time ago. Regardless, I am glad that we can have a civilized discussion about it.

I think there are a few threads and discussions going on here and a few camps of thought regarding the new ToS, some people saying that 3.3.3's punishment is too harsh, some saying that 3.3.3 is totally unnecessary, and some saying that thew new ToS 2.0 is entirely unnecessary and we should go back to the old ToS or revamp it another way.

Can one of you kind folks please actually rewrite the parts of the ToS that you have an issue with and make a suggestion on how YOU would word it and improve on the wording? Just so we can move into a more positive direction and everyone talking over each other can fully understand what changes to the ToS you guys would think would be good.

I MESSED UP THE LINK HERE'S THE REAL ONE