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Class balance, should warriors be viable?

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by kickserve, Jan 29, 2021.

  1. JDPJHC
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    JDPJHC Mixed Golem

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    Nah I do all three. Give good dpm, rely on friends and host myself. Thats how i solve problems. How else do you propose to solve those issues? Make up imaginary issues and complain? :hilarious::hilarious::hilarious:
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. Magen
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    Magen Selkie Jr.

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    It proved with numbers.
    Simply compared classes and came up with idea to make the warrior class more viable.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  3. JDPJHC
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    JDPJHC Mixed Golem

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    Your numbers didnt prove anything and your ideas are bad. Point blank period. You are just pushing for warriors to be OP and mad your trolling isn't working.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
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  4. Magen
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    Magen Selkie Jr.

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    idk if you noticed but this is not my thread, i didnt open it but it talk about the same issue as I did on my thread.
    I get it your are in the camp who think warriors are balance and im on the camp who think they need to get small tweaks regarding to boss meta changed and DPM of funded heroes < decent to low range, as again Heroes/pally has nothing to offer to parties beside DPM.
    its okay to disagree, nothing gonna change.
     
  5. BananaPie
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    BananaPie Selkie Jr.

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    So let me summarise.

    - Warriors are a viable class as they're still invited to 6man HT and pink bean runs
    - If you're not getting invited, find some friends/be less pepega.

    Okay we can close the thread now.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  6. RegalStar
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    RegalStar Nightshadow

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    This is just plain idiotic. Arms don't mass seduce until they have 30% HP left, and in every single run I've been in cleavers will cleave as much as they can until the Wings are dead (spreading damage to both left and right arm using leg/tail death as a dividing line), so a cleaver that doesn't get to cleave anything in HT has nothing but the host's stupidness to blame on.

    I'm not gonna write a detailed essay on every other point you're trying to make, so here's just a summary: For BF I was talking about Evil Rising and Evil Dead where archers and NLs can't get rid of Elderwraiths fast enough to getting knocked around and having their pins broken, HT's wyverns are not always dealed with by bishops, especially in 6 man runs where the bishop needs to be babysitting the sed target, or they may have died/dc'd/had their client crashed/clicked Log Out in an attempt to change their autopot settings, and dealing with summons (both HT and Zak) for ranged are way harder than you described (NL's Ninja Storm deals 80% damage, while Archers are constantly in risk of getting knocked out of position). Scarga meant "Scar and Targa together in one sitting", and ranged in general is basically useless because when one of them is in weapon cancel it'd inevitably get in front of the other (due to lack of KB) and block shots, and in CWK I was referring to how one can put a cleave on the mage boss to balance cleave-heavy runs (Tim aka Blu301 likes to do this, though these days he also dual clients a BM to speed things up, he didn't dual client when he first tried it out), while trying to do the reverse will result in abject failure.

    But those are nitpicking points. The main point I was trying to make still stands - cleave-friendly situations and mixed-friendly situations are fewer than single-target-friendly situations because in most cases, cleavers can still perform acceptably in single-target-friendly situations, with difference low enough that they can be made up with, or even overcome, with difference in levels, gears and/or playing skills. In contrast, mixed-friendly situations usually favor cleaver a lot more, and outright cleaver-friendly situations generally result in ranged classes being almost unplayable. This is in addition to cleaver classes's advantage in grinding and higher survivability (even in a hypothetical situation where everyone have 30k HP, cleaver classes still have access to things like damage reduction and iframes while ranged classes get no such things).
     
    • Great Work Great Work x 3
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  7. Oradious
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    Oradious Capt. Latanica

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    I bet you clowns could have had 50% of the NX required to wash a PB-ready range from voting/grinding if you didn't spend all your time making bAlAnCe tHrEaDs
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

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    Warriors are probably still fine balance wise, but when you begin to read into the changes to bosses like HT you can sort of get an impression that they've been on a downward trend from their peak at cleave meta with old arms. I don't actually think the meme triple-DK 6-man could work anymore, at least not with the ease that it once did. Cleave is just much more limited now which could lead to people feeling as though they're left out, which is a valid concern when party slots tend to be much more open for single-target dps. It wasn't a concern a year ago, but the slow transition might be cause for concern if content continues to be tweaked in such a way that hinders cleave. It's all still based on nothing more than conjecture, but the class anxiety should be looked at in future balance decisions. For now warriors fulfill their roll and I can still enjoy playing mine.

    Also yikes, this forum feels like a toxic cesspool now more than ever. Seriously most of you are adults, there's no reason to flame people.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
  9. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    Yes I'm aware what I've written, and in theory, I still think something needs to be changed.

    Maybe I'm still lacking knowledge, maybe I still missed out certain stuffs, maybe I've selectively read post and ignore some others,
    But as of now, I have yet to see how adding other late-game bosses that utilizes cleave, in future, such as Chaos Zakum, will make Heroes IMBA.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  10. Selquin
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    Selquin Headless Horseman

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    Show DK IGN kekW
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  11. Chrisss
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    Chrisss Mushmom

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    I feel that warriors are already pretty much balanced in the game and have been proven useful for bossing. Of course, they will need SI and SE to maximize their dps. As for NT pt 2, we'll just have to wait until it's released to find out whether warriors need any sort of changes. For now, as much as I can see a lot of players wanting balance changes for different classes/jobs, I think every class/job has their own pros/cons that'll inevitably require a balance change. I hope to see what lies ahead in the future. :)
     
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  12. Magen
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    Magen Selkie Jr.

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    how much your bet on?
    upload_2021-2-17_12-18-41.png

    I have few characters with almost same amount as in the picture.

    you guys just think that warrior balance thread created cause people too lazy to vote, and this is not true.

    I think it may be the reason why people just put "disagree" on every thread that says warrior need some tweaks to be viable, because you people think the NX is the problem that warrior users try to hide when they ask for some improvements.

    What we ask for in our threads is nothing that will break the game balance; it's just small tweaks.

    Like wise,
    for heroes:
    make Enrage a party buff skill? OR make the CD of it like BM's concentrate? OR change enrage so warrior could use panic sword every certain of time without losing aca (like MM snipe) OR change brandish to single attack on Enrage active?
    btw : there are classes who can cleave&single&grind this is nothing new.
    for paladins:
    make HH viable in bosses (lets say it does 0 dmg if the pala is multiclient?) OR make HH damage same as Blast skill?
    for DKs:
    make them wash to 30k and benefit with it? (zerk if DK has low hp than his base).
    if someone wanna play risk like today's zerk terms he doesnt need to wash to 30k

    Honestly I cant see why any of these suggestion would BREAK the balance in game not like warrior would be white a single attack class on single attack terms or something.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 5
  13. xadra
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    xadra Capt. Latanica

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    The reason people click disagree is because they don't think these changes are necessary and you have not made a convincing case to show that it is necessary. The burden of proof is on the proponents claiming that a buff is necessary.

    If everyone just wants "small tweaks that wont break balance", there are so many things that could be suggested, and the only guidelines are that people "feel" it is necessary and it "doesn't break balance".

    The NX thing was clearly a joke.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
  14. Magen
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    Magen Selkie Jr.

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    Yea, I get your point and I agree that if everyone suggest one little suggestion that wouldnt ruin the game balance, in the bigger picture it will eventually.
    But, yet I think there is a place to my suggestion and I think Staff should doing some tests and talk about it atleast.
    The reason this topic comes up again and again (I found so many threads on it already) is because people find it as a necessary change that should have done.

    I dont know if you followed my thread on warrior balance but ill put my points from there :
    as for heroes:
    1. Hero need to give up on panic/comma sword and chrage his ACA again which basically pure lost of 500k and future pure dps lost to use Enrage.
    2. CD of Enrage too long. you can use it 28minutes per hour **(if you time it perfectly and have pure 1hour of blasting).
    3. cant use Enrage and apple or other buff combine (its not pure +6 att).
    4. 2b hero can do on single attack 6 to 6.5m (with SE + SI) at lv 160-180 ish damage per minute while comparing 2b other classes can do way more with same budget of fund.
    there are more points but I found these points as the main issue.
    for DKs:
    I cant see why not change it to base HP to zerk. for real why are they the only class who cant benefit from washing? why DK need to run away from bishop's heal?
    In my thread, the people who disagree with this topic, said they love to play risk. man if you wanna play risk, you dont have to wash.
    but for now, DK just stop to wash when they reach 18k hp which is pretty lame.
    for paladins:
    yet, I dont think anyone explain to me why, if HH damage in bosses would be equal to Blast damage will cause any bad results?
    that basically solve the HH mules issue.

    good vibes!
     
  15. whatdatoast
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    whatdatoast Windraider

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    I don't want to keep harping on this point, but can you post a @dpm of a hero with this dpm range and the gear they have? Because in Nise's graph, he's using lvl 155 with 2.5b gear and is getting 6.3m theoretical dummy dpm. I don't think it's fair to say it's 6.5m at lvl 180ish. Similarly, we can find some NL/BM/Sairs to do some dpm tests. I don't think it's "way more" damage. 10-20% less single target dpm should be reasonable given warriors can also cleave.

    Also it's disingenuous to claim that GMs aren't testing/balancing warriors. In fact, every major event (every 2-3 months) there's a huge balance patch and always contains some major/minor tweaks for warriors.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  16. JDPJHC
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    JDPJHC Mixed Golem

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    Imagine comparing single target damage, but conveniently leaving out cleave damage comparisons. Shill accounts still going heavy I see.:roflmao::roflmao:
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. echung379
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    echung379 Brown Teddy

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    I'm a hero main and I started playing ML in 2018 but I don't play anymore so for me personally I don't really care what balance team does anymore.

    In my opinion, the issue is that the best end game content (HT and PB) are both clearly favoring ranged attackers. All the DPM charts and math point to ranged attackers out damaging warriors. Simply buffing warrior's single target damage to match ranged damage would be admittedly unfair, since warriors can cleave in situations like CWKPQ or zak. So what's the solution then?

    1. By far the easiest, and the best solution in my opinion, is to give every class a good party utility skill. This is the best way to ensure that hosts would be incentivized to take a diverse set of classes on their PB and HT runs. A lot of classes already have this, most notably BM/MM's have SE and DK's have HB. No issue there. The problem is that pally, hero, and shads don't have any skills that really help the party. If the aforementioned classes had a party utility skill that would help the party as a whole produce more damage than taking a 2nd or 3rd NL in the party, then that would incentivize hosts to do so, and problem solved.
    - The natural thing to do for heroes would be to give rage a buff, as a 20 att buff is useless for party utility when attackers can just take ciders.
    - I'm not sure about shads/pally but some sort of smokescreen buff for shads or damage taken reduction skill for pally could work. This would need more input from a shad or pally main.​

    There are other games that do this very well. I'm currently playing Genshin Impact, and while that game has its own problems, they do an amazing job of balancing characters. If you run a party of 4 DPS attackers, you're going to get wrecked in the spiral abyss (their equivalent of an end-game boss). You're way better off taking 1-2 DPS, 1-2 support/utility, and 1 healer for optimal DPM and clear time. This incentivizes people to level up multiple characters and have a diverse party when doing co-op dungeons.

    2. Add a cleave element to PB. I quit before PB so I admittedly don't really know much about it, but I've heard there's little/no cleave in PB. Adding a cleave element would ensure that cleave attackers would have a more defined role in the boss run. See, CWKPQ. It works so well in CWKPQ.

    I think that some of the arguments in favor of cleave are valid. It's easier to HP wash, they can grind better, effective in CWKPQ, etc. This is all true. However it's demotivating training a cleave to high level when you know in the back of your mind that you're going to be doing 70-80% of the damage of an NL for end-game single target bosses.

    In favor of point #1 above, I really don't think adding a party utility skill to all classes would break the game in any way. It would really incentivize for class diversity instead of an "OP" party filled with 1 SE, 1 HB, 1 bishop, and 3 NLs.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  18. JDPJHC
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    JDPJHC Mixed Golem

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    Contrary to popular belief, I think Heros have a decent party skill. Its just eclipsed by the fact that Ciders can stack and are ridiculously cheap. I think if Ciders were nerfed a lot of Heros might feel a bit differently about our buff.

    I actually think this is a great idea. For those that may not know, the Paladin skill Threaten reduces touch damage from mobs and bosses. I wonder if the values of this skills could be tweaked a bit. It could be a useful buff to Paladins and would be an interesting selling point to low HP parties looking for a single target attacker.
    Edit: Actually I guess a lot of people just die to magic attacks so maybe a Threaten buff wouldnt be as useful.
     
  19. echung379
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    echung379 Brown Teddy

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    Nerfing ciders would be another way to indirectly buff rage and I think this would work.

    Imagine a world where you could buy a pot from NPC that gives you +60% hp. I'm pretty sure DK's would be up in arms about how their HB skill is useless. This is basically what's happening to heroes and rage.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  20. JDPJHC
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    JDPJHC Mixed Golem

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    Give us pots that give Sharp Eyes!
     
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