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Guaranteed Prestigious Coin Pouch for Bossing

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Mageor, Oct 4, 2022.

  1. twing1
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    twing1 Pink Teddy

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    What this thread has boiled down to is another argument of whether the game should be balanced around the most end-game, hardcore-optimizers or those that aren't optimizing at the highest level.

    I would usually agree that those who do not play the game most optimally do not deserve the highest quality of equips. After all, if less than true-end game players are able to obtain the same rewards as the most sweaty, die-hard, 10+ hour a day players, then what is the motivation for putting in the extra effort? There is none.

    And I don't think there are any illusions as to what the most optimized way of playing MapleLegends is. Nobody here can effectively dispute the fact that the most efficient way to play MapleLegends is to multi-client. There is a whole host of benefits that it offers that simply cannot be competed with. Multi-maging needs no explanation as a solitary, anytime-you-want-it meso making activity that outclasses even end game level bossing in that regard. Multi-attacking allows rewards of bosses that are typically split between 5-6+ players to be reaped by just one person. Multi-clienting is the most optimized and efficient way to play this game. Period. And as such, I can understand the argument that end-game balance should be focused on those that effectively make use of this strategy, and that perfect weapons should be reserved for this portion of the population.

    The reason why I disagree with it and vehemently oppose that end-game equipment be balanced around this standard, however, is that multi-clienting doesn't just involve playing the game, it also involves the outside activity of manipulating the game itself by juggling multiple clients. And balancing the game around the expectation that players will be manipulating multiple clients and maneuvering multiple characters simultaneously will inevitably exclude or at least severely impede those that only play the game, and not the external mini-game of multi-clienting, from reaching the true end-game. MapleLegends game balance should focus on those who play MapleLegends, and not those who multi-client. After all, its MapleStory not Multi-ClientStory.

    I believe the afore-calculated estimate of 24.3 coins per day for 5 hours of bossing to be an extremely reasonable reward rate for hardcore, dedicated players willing to boss for 5+ hours each day. I think a ~1 year timetable for a perfect weapon is reasonable for those dedicated to it.

    I see a lot of arguments opposing this because there would be ways to manipulate it to be far more rewarding than intended.

    But why should players that single-client optimally for 5+ hours a day of bossing suffer from restrictions because of the fact that some people are going to manipulate the game by using multiple clients and reap greater rewards? Or is it that, in order to be an optimal MapleLegends player, it is a requirement to multi-client, and these people spending 5+ hours a day on a single client simply aren't hardcore enough and don't deserve perfect weapons after a year of dedicated work?

    People who multi-client will always get ahead of those who single-client. That's the reason why they multi-client in the first place. And if the server's stance on that is that it is allowed, then it is allowed. But balancing the game around that standard is taking it a step past that and turning "allowance" into "expectation". And the outside-the-game activity of multi-clienting shouldn't be the expectation.

    Guaranteed coin drops from bosses will absolutely make bossing more rewarding for both single-clienters and multi-clienters. It will allow single-clienters to perfect a weapon faster, but still at a reasonable rate of around 1 per year of 5+ hours of bossing everyday. Multi-clienters will absolutely take advantage of this and make their weapons even faster. But why is this an issue?

    "bUt It WiLl RuIn ThE eCoNoMy"

    If this is a concern for you, you wouldn't even be multi-clienting in the first place. If this isn't a concern for you, and you believe that the inflation (both item inflation and meso inflation) that multi-clienting contributes to actually helps the economy, then great, this will expedite that and make it even "better".

    But why say nay? It seems to me that the nay sayers are the ones that likely already have perfected weapons, and feel like all the effort they put into those weapons will be discredited by making them easier to obtain for others.
     
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  2. TORONTOTOKYO
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    TORONTOTOKYO Windraider

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    cos its important to maintain elite status. It happens in real world as well.
     
  3. Thuglifer
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    Thuglifer Capt. Latanica

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    Interesting post however, if a guaranteed pouch doesn't go thru. I'd suggest a Guaranteed Coin(s) per boss with the already existing Pouch drop. As for easily solo-able bosses such as Rav, Pap will instead get a % chance of Coin.

    In contrast:
    Rav: 20% chance for 1 Coin dropping with existing Pouch drop rate unchanged.
    Pap: 25% chance for 1 Coin dropping with existing Pouch drop rate unchanged.
    JC: 25% chance for 1 Coin dropping with existing Pouch drop rate unchanged.
    Scarlion: 75% chance for 1 Coin dropping with existing Pouch drop rate unchanged.
    Targa: 100% chance for 1 Guaranteed Coin dropping with existing Pouch drop rate unchanged.
    Zakum: 100% chance for 3 Guaranteed Coin dropping with existing Pouch drop rate unchanged.
    Horntail: 100% chance for 6 Guaranteed Coin dropping with existing Pouch drop rate unchanged.
    **Rates (%) and Coins shown for example only.

    Alternatively, for >1 coins bosses, they could have a % chance rate (not 100%) for a range of coins.

    i.e. zakum with a cap of 3 coins.
    100% chance for 1 coin.
    75% chance for 2 coins.
    50% chance for 3 coins.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Are you telling me this isn't already possible?
     
  5. twing1
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    twing1 Pink Teddy

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    Its already possible, it can even be possible in 1 day and 7 30% scrolls.
     
  6. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    You don't need guaranteed drop rates to get 24 coins/day. You just need better optimized comps so that your splits are more weighted. Bossing optimization is almost always about splits.

    Daily Trio Toad, Trio Zak 2x, Trio Core Blaze 2x, Duo Krex 2x, and Duo JC 2x should yield close to 20 coins per person. Sprinkle in PB once a week and a few HT runs, and you'll meet that mark easily.

    Asking for guaranteed pouch drops is asking for everything to be made >200% faster.
     
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  7. zeroxlr
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    zeroxlr Windraider

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    Faster isn't bad.

    I guess it's more of HOW fast.

    I'm thinking maybe 50% to 70% increase in fastness would be a good improvement for most people.

    Do you want it slower? Or do you want it to stop changing completely?
     
  8. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    I've already given my response.

    Higher drop rates with lowered coin rewards for it to ultimately be the same.

    If drop rates are less than 50%, it means a majority of the people are experiencing the shitty side of probability. You can probably make the experience more enjoyable by increasing the drop rate to be > 50% but have the expected value be the same by reducing the payout.

    The server doesn't need to generate coins faster.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Informative Informative x 1
  9. xDarkomantis
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    xDarkomantis Mushmom

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    As a guy that was able to get to lv15x recently and boss organizers are finally considering taking me into runs... I want to give my input on this. Maybe I'm doing something wrong but... once you get a helm to ~30 dex stat, I don't see any value in doing a Boss run (Zak/Krex) compared to just grinding 7f. I don't particularly enjoy grinding the map but 7f provides:
    • Shorter set up/exit time (no waiting for teammates up to 10-20mins taking boats, downtimes between runs, and taking ~10mins getting back to the continent you prefer)
    • Higher exp return (no unlucky weapon cancels that can delay the run for up to 5-10+ minutes, lowering your exp return per time)
    • guaranteed ~2m per hour
    • Gachapon tickets/nx
    Why do I even want to do Zakum or Krex anymore when after spending 1/4~1/3 of the run afking against the numerous Weapons cancels (not sure why this hasn't been addressed??) I need to pray for Coin Pouch to drop, pray for good Coin rng from Pouch, and then pray I win roll rng against my teammates so I don't get ~1 coin? That's a lot of praying! If no pouch drops then I used up a lot of my playtime for a small exp gain... I'm not sure if it gets any better in the other high level bosses besides Horntail (since we all know that's the money/exp boss). I wish there was better incentive and weapon cancels addressed (QoL > Nostalgia.. pls)...

    Also, it seems like others are against core players (between casual and hardcore) saving up enough to have a perfect weapon by the time they get to 200. I don't think there's anything wrong with having a perfect weapon.. They're not going to have high attack CGS by the end of their journey. On the other big server, you have to weigh between getting a perfect weapon for one character or balanced CGS to share among several characters. I don't think it would be an issue here unless veterans really want players who aren't sweating multi-maging/insane bossing (HT, Auf, PB) to only have mediocre gear by the end with no perfect gear/high stat gear.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. Estrahl
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    Estrahl Mr. Anchor

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    I think the main problem comes from people expecting that you have to have a perfect weapon to do anything end-game.

    Perfect weapons aren't the norm, shouldn't be the norm. They're a goal, for sure, especially for people who want to put in the work, but they're not necessary at all. So not only are we now expecting to have perfect weapons/equips when they're not exactly necessary, we're also expecting them on the way to 200, so that we have at least one by the time we get there.

    It's just not necessary, and ruins the point of having perfect equips to begin with.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. OP
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    Mageor Mr. Anchor

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    Yes, perfect gears weren’t the norm, but if you’re talking to players who been playing for 2-3 years, who have been having “normal” gear for 2-3 years, then yes, perfect gear are the new norm.
     
  12. Estrahl
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    Estrahl Mr. Anchor

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    Which part of the playerbase has been playing for 2-3 years consistently, even when events aren't going on, that has been serious the entire time, and working towards, getting a perfected weapon and doesn't already have one, or is really close to getting one? I can say I've been playing for almost 2 years, but I cannot say that I've been playing consistently for that amount of time. How many of us have been playing just for the nostalgia and not really putting in the grind?
     
  13. xDarkomantis
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    xDarkomantis Mushmom

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    I don't think anyone is expecting anything. The want is for a better satisfaction in bossing through the coins. Whatever the players do with it shouldn't be gated just because veterans don't want people to aim for a perfect weapon. Only a small portion of those core players would even attempt to do it as it's not exciting potentially using 10+ white scrolls for 1 slot. Getting a balanced CGS or gambling with Chaos Scrolls is the general preference among those players.
     
  14. OP
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    Mageor Mr. Anchor

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    Well I have o.o I'm part of that player base and so are some people who commented on this thread. I can understand that this maybe is not your problem, but doesn't mean this isn't a problem.
     
  15. yurain
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    yurain Windraider

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    Basically the pre covid players have farmed the covid players with cheap scrolls (ws/cs) and profitable boss runs (services).
    Now the covid players are basically stuck with inflation on everything and depressing wages.
    Why does it sounds like some irl
     
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  16. TORONTOTOKYO
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    TORONTOTOKYO Windraider

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    boomers farming on millennials n gen x irl
     
  17. Estrahl
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    Estrahl Mr. Anchor

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    I can see that. I just think, in general, it's not supposed to be something we even need. I don't think the base game was ever designed around perfected stuff.

    I do think entry-level gears should be more accessible, items that get you in the door, let you work on that stuff, maybe if we could get a large enough of the player base through that door we could have a better idea of what would be good for old and new players.

    I don't think there's a real world correlation to this. Real world is so much more complex(and malevolent, and malicious) that it's practically insulting to the sufferers to compare perfected weapons to something like the housing crisis or wage earnings. Let's keep it a little more grounded if we're going to start comparing it to current events.
     
  18. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Zakum

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    Depends on what you prioritize. 7f will ALWAYS be the best raw EXP you can get, short of chaining together Bigfoot after a server restart. What most content gives you is comparable EPM with, on average, much better money. If we assume Zakum drops pouches 33% of the time at a rate of 15 coins per pouch, that's an average of 5 coins per Zakum, or almost 3m per runner on a 6 man run. Assuming 30 min runs, you're making, on average, 6m from coins alone. If you add in even a single AFK helm buyer per run, that's an additional 5m per runner, for a total of 11m mesos for 1 hour of work, on top of good EXP. As you get stronger, those 6 man runs become 5 man, then 4, then 3, then 2 and your meso splits and EXP will get better and better.

    Most players see Krex as kind of a waste of time EXP/mesos-wise, the main thing it has going for it is that it's really easy, low pot costs, and doesn't require a summoning item, but it's poor returns. Zak on the other hand remains relevant even into endgame and I know many 200 players who continue to farm it despite getting literally 0 EXP from it. If Zak isn't time efficient for you, then either you or your hosts are doing something wrong.

    There's an argument to be made, as has already been made multiple times in this thread for changing the Coin droprate at Zak to 100% chance for 5 coins instead of 33% chance for 15 coins, but the expected returns remain the same and over enough runs you won't see a difference.
     
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  19. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Zakum

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    I'm actually a little confused at what people are asking for here. Are people asking for MORE returns/coins from bossing? Because as it stands bossing already has incredibly good returns. I have done almost no 7f, almost all of my levelling on my BM is from content and area bosses, and was able to farm around 1000 coins in the past month and a half without any multimaging, grinding, farming, or selling leech. That's an average of more than 70m a day from doing literally just bosses (2x daily quad coreblaze, 2x daily trio JC, 2x weekly 6man HT, ~2x weekly duo/trio Zak, 1x biweekly PB).

    Why are people asking for MORE than that?
     
  20. OP
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    Mageor Mr. Anchor

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    Your stats sound good, is there data to back it up? How many hours a day do you play? How many hours a week? Whats the EV for each boss? Do you count the time you wait just doing nothing before or between boss runs? What kind of player are you? Hardcore? Casual?

    From your post above, you mention making 11m/hr from zak. Whats the prep time for each run? Finding runners, finding buyers, traveling. What's the true EV from run zakum? If we go purely by your value, you would be playing 6 hrs a day x 45 days => 270 hours. Obviously that's not the true value. Let's say in actuality you need to play 9 hours a day to achieve this EV. 9 hrs x 45 days = 405 hours, now you're looking at 7.4m/hr.

    Time is money, regardless of whether or not you're in a run or not.

    Also weirdly, since you're willing to spend 45 days to obtain 1000 coins, does that mean you're willing to spend 315 days or 1890 hours (6 hrs per day according to your own words) to obtain 7000 coins to ws10 your weapon. If you put this into real life and let's say you are earning $10 minimum wage, you're valuing a perfect weapon at $18,900. Now if you're factoring in gloves, capes, shoes, other equipments. What's the expected time investment a player have to invest in this game to achieve end game?
     
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