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HP washing (problem?) ONLY in this server

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by PumpkinJuice, Dec 5, 2022.

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  1. PumpkinJuice
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    PumpkinJuice Orange Mushroom

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    I have played some servers before this, which many servers outright disables HP washing. One other server that have a similar washing system is Royals, which is similar to Legends and the original Maplestory.

    I also will like to mention I am new in this server, and I saw some feedbacks which is aimed towards new players. I thought was interesting, and have some suggestions on my own, therefore made this post. And I am certain I do not see as much as the veteran players.

    So what is the problem I mentioned?

    The heavy gatekeeping of NX. Currently, to earn NX requires voting which nets you 5k nx per day. Even which farming, I read that it will still be less than just voting everyday.

    But why this only this amount of nx everyday?

    Especially when ML is stated to be not Vote2Win, therefore the only thing that nx will affect that is part of the gameplay is HP washing. The rest of the items are easily obtainable every day by multi voting other accounts to get owls or megaphone. Cosmetics and pets are just a few days of voting to get the full set.

    So what is my point?

    There are many people with different thoughts about washing. Some hated it, some loved it, some don't really mind. I am a new player who don't really mind HP washing, it is just a system in place for you to increased hp. What really horrifies me, is the insane amount of time needed just to get the HP you want. Royals did not have the same problem because they have AP resets in their economy, so while it is troublesome, at least it will not take years and not being able to do anything about it as Legends only can earn AP resets through your own account.

    So what I really want to say is there should not be any need to stop people from earning more nx. I know that there is the new alternative HP gaining challenge quests, but they are not mutually exclusive as they are more for people who just hates washing or new players who don't know about washing and their characters won't be an unusable one pass a certain point. For some other new players, they already knew about HP washing and are willing to spend time to get the HP goals they targeted, but I am certain not the years spent just to get a character to the HP goal.

    HP washing in the end is really just... gaining HP to survive bosses. More HP you have, you can survive better. Maybe also use less pot. There is nothing game breaking about this, since many other players have already done it, so I don't think allowing for easier wash will result in anything huge.

    My suggestion:

    In the days I have played, I feel that the rates of 100/250 is similar to the rates of common gachapon, while rates of 500/750 is similar to rare gachapon. I do not know if the stats are true, it is just my anecdotal experience.

    So assuming that is the case, I suggest:

    1) Removal of 100/250 nx. (I don't know why they are needed. The amount is so low and so rare that it hardly does anything at all), and then replace the two nx with the 500/750 nx. So essentially 500/750 nx will have higher droprates.

    2) A new amount to with rare drop to replace the 500/750 nx.(Personally I feel even if the amount is like 3k, it still barely equates to 1 wash, which I don't feel it is anything drastic)

    Again, this is coming from a new player in this server, and I might not see as well as a veteran in this server. Therefore, this is just what I feel playing for a short time here.
     
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  2. fael
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    fael Nightshadow

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    I agree with you in some parts, but when you say you need "years" I don't think it's true. Some AP resets come from events too (and I hope they keep coming) and there are some op strategies with guides available to farm NX (and mesos by gachapons). I know people who saved gooood months of voting by doing this, including myself.

    Another thing is when you say you need years, I'm guessing you want 30k HP on a ranged char. In this case, I think that you must grind for it, because you don't want to be able to survive only, you want the comfort. But still, I don't disagree with having methods to get more NX, but I think they should be something separated from meso farming.

    For example, nowadays you can farm some NX while you sell leech or while you use multi DK strategy. In both cases, you gonna get a lot of mesos while you also farm some NX. This is fine imo and actually good because it's not easy. But instead of buffing those methods (as you suggested), I would rather see some kind of events, like happened in the past, where you could choose doing the raffle or get some AP Resets.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
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  3. Ainz
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    Ainz Zakum

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    So many I keep forgetting
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    Luckily this system is on the way, which should negate your worries :)
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  4. UnknownCode
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    UnknownCode Nightshadow

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    Your speculation on how the coupons drop and how the total vote is just by reading is quite amazing, given the threads to acquire that info, theres also bonus NX if you consistently vote, its not that much either but the boost does help with washing and renewing pet equips faster (Meso Magnet, Item Pouch etc.)

    The amount of NX that drops, is okay but its just the drop rate thats the problem. To tackle this head on people would make an LPQ mule to farm NX and some scrolls, this does help in the long run but its rather difficult to form a party to LPQ.

    The amount of time one would have to kill off their character at level 50 is also time consuming, if only there was a way to get Balrog Seal Stone implemented in solely for PQs only as thats what its intent was for, however Kimmy doesn't like the mechanic of it for some reason.

    Your points are great and I agree with a few things, however I don't think the NX would really help anymore at this point on because of the HP challenges that they have implemented.

    The server is still one of the best, considering that it has a mac client and a flexible ToS that isn't too serious unless you break the worst ones.

    If you do still choose to play this server, I wish you the best in regards to how you choose to have fun and enjoy the game, your post was a nice read.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. LeonardoJF
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    LeonardoJF Zakum

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    Without gain exp is hard to track bots..
     
  6. pharaoh
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    pharaoh Master Chronos

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    500/750 NX at the current 100/250 drop rates would be ridiculously overpowered.
     
    • Agree Agree x 7
  7. UnknownCode
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    UnknownCode Nightshadow

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    Yeah, a bot thats going to be inside a party quest in front of other people? o.o

    EDIT: You have Balrog Soul Stone in your inventory OUTSIDE a Party Quest, you will still get EXP. You are INSIDE a Party Quest with Balrog Seal Stone in your inventory you will not gain EXP, if you WANT exp you can drop it talk to the Party Quest NPC to complete the stage to GAIN exp because it is NOT inside your inventory, then pick it back up.

    How can it be for botting, staff could just check on in the Party Quest to see if there is a bot. A Human would say "OMG HI GM!!@!" if they appear, a bot would not react at all.
     
  8. flow
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    flow Slimy

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    While this is a problem in your POV, someone can argue the time-gating is good to avoid RWT'ers and hold players into the server, anyways when the challenges system get implemented i think this is going to be less problematic than it is right now.
    8 Months to make a truly OP character who is able to tank melee hits and make the gameplay extremely comfortable is reasonable, but 8 months to start playing your casual attacker isn't
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  9. Gurk
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    Gurk Nightshadow

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    Something that many new players and outsiders looking in (who often wonder why ML doesn't just give all classes enough HP to do all the bosses by default and do away with washing) fail to account for is the fact that washing plays a big part in Legends' current class balance, for better or worse.

    If ranged characters could easily reach the same amount of HP as melee chars, the latter would be rendered almost entirely obsolete. I'm not saying that HP should be the deciding factor for playing range vs. melee or that that dynamic should be necessarily preserved (I think it's pretty unhealthy), but a huge class overhaul would have to be done for the washing process to be trivialized. In servers where HP washing doesn't exist, you can see that there is no range vs. melee dichotomy with respect to DPS and classes like DKs and even Bishops are sometimes top tier attackers.

    For what it's worth, I think that the challenge system as it was tentatively proposed also carries this risk of marginalizing melee classes in the same way to a certain degree if no other significant changes are made to make melee characters more desirable.
     
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  10. LeonardoJF
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    LeonardoJF Zakum

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    Fuck yeah, i very understand u point and told it many times!
     
  11. UnknownCode
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    UnknownCode Nightshadow

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    You should sign up for balance team.
     
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  12. OP
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    PumpkinJuice
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    PumpkinJuice Orange Mushroom

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    This statement would be true, if the server is not already 7 years old. The balance had already been broken, most veteran players already have their washed range classes. Melees are almost already obsolete, it is a now problem rather than a future problem, and that is mostly due to dps and not HP.

    When will you bring a melee class over a Night Lord? In situations where that particular melee class can triumph over the dps of Night Lords like cleaving. I feel it has nothing to do with HP.

    The only class that has anything to do with HP is only Dark Knight, not melee classes. Ranged having enough HP only made Dark Knights party skill HB useless.

    I disagree, ALL servers are either dominated by Night Lords, or have other classes buffed up to Night Lords damage. Nothing to do with HP itself.


    With my point of balance already being broken, we should not introduce HP back as a balance again, especially when HP washing is not just a simple troublesome mechanic, it is an actual exploit.

    Using exploit as a balance is contradictory to this server's values.

    Am I right to say that gaining a massive amount of stats is out of "nothing" is unintended?
    Am I also right to say that by using that massive amount of stats to gain HP is unfair to other players?

    Players discovered this loophole, and proceed to gain massive amount of HPs.

    But why didn't the devs back then fix this exploit? Because it was a crazy money generation exploit for them. An AP reset can cost $3, it takes thousands of washes to wash a char. $3k per character. The higher ups will definitely also not let them patch this delicious money making tool.

    People say it was bad design that ranged cannot survive bosses without hp, I say it was intended design by Neckson to make players have to wash to boss.

    And the moment ranged can survive bosses, melee will stay a step back, which back then only really make DKs viable.

    But as of now, we are already at a point where we are at the point of no return. The damage was done, the balance was destroyed, HP washing becomes a core mechanic due to the designs by the past, and now it became a gap between veterans and new players. What I simply suggest was a way for new players who aimed bigger to at least, in a more reasonable time rather than years, it would take around a year to achieve it. I did not simply want players to be able to reach melee's HP in a single week.

    What we should balance now is not the HP of classes, rather a way to make classes viable by other means(which I think muling is more of a problem than HP).
     
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  13. OP
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    PumpkinJuice
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    PumpkinJuice Orange Mushroom

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    Oh I definitely am not attacking anyone. As I said, I am new in this server in hope to see insights. From some of your comments, it already seems he is reputable here, therefore I replied specifically to him as it seems he can best answer some doubts here.

    Anyway, I meant dark knight as the only class that can affect HP and not melee classes.

    And about Tiger discovering HP washing, a famous player from the past does not mean that it cannot be an exploit. And it is a thing allowed to exist due to money being earned.

    And yes washing exists due to the designs of Neckson, across old Maplestory.

    My point of it being unfair is on the original maple back in the times where most players are not able to wash due to the expenditure, where other richer players are able to through an unintended design.

    And about the reaching HP in a week, perhaps I worded it badly, what I meant was to reply that my suggestions are not for players to be able to reach that goal fast, replying to Gurk comment about the defaulting all players with enough HP, because he sounds like I wanted an easy way to gain HP, but my intentions are just for players to be rewarded more with active playing and reaching goals with a more realistic time.

    And the muling part where I felt it was bad is not the multimage. As in any kinds of buff towards warriors like for example crash or threaten, there is always the feeling that the class will still only become a mule and not be any real relevance.

    I think I got off-tracked talking about og maple washing too lol. In the end it is just how I viewed about washing in general back in the days.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  14. UnknownCode
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    UnknownCode Nightshadow

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    Hm, I get what you're saying it just seemed that way. Gurk used to be in Balance team but idk what happened exactly.
    He should find a way to get back in.

    I see, yeah I acknowledge what you mean on this part now, it can be annoying to have created a class to have it become useless. I've have that feeling too. (I didn't have funds to keep my NL so it became useless, I still have it though just in case I do get funds to play him again.)

    Yeah, true its just I felt like Neckson didn't do it on purpose otherwise they would have mentioned something about it but didn't.
    -
    Now, that was a good read LOL
     
  15. Gurk
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    Gurk Nightshadow

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    I think you have entirely misunderstood me because nothing you have said contradicts my position. Your proposal focused exclusively on speeding up washing without any consideration for the effect it would have on class balance and the meta and so I am simply pointing out that a huge class overhaul would have to accompany any such changes for your suggestion to be feasible, which is a point you seem to agree with.

    I cannot personally comment on most of the other servers as I have not played them. What I can say is that the last two times I checked class DPM rankings for another popular server that did away with washing, DK had the highest theoretical single target DPM with other melee classes near the top as well just trailing behind NL.

    This is however entirely besides my point as my only reason in having brought this up was to show how different the landscape is in some other servers where HP washing does not exist and where they have effectively demolished the concept of ranged classes necessarily having superior single target damage to melee classes. In these servers, there are melee classes that do more single target damage than ranged classes and there are ranged classes that do more than melee classes. Such conditions allow for this dismissal of HP in balance considerations.

    You say that some servers have buffed the other classes up to NL damage, but that would be considered an extremely radical move here. A melee class doing more single target damage than a ranged class is still a relatively foreign concept for this server. What I am only trying to say is that this server currently does not have the landscape to support your proposal of significantly speeding up washing without extensive changes to the melee classes or the bossing content available, a change that I am not against.

    You're still fundamentally misunderstanding my position and if you went back to reread what I said you'd realize that we actually agree on most things. Not once did I say that HP should be used as the crutch to balance the two groups of classes, only that that is the current state of affairs.

    Ranged classes doing more single target damage than melee classes necessitates that melee classes have an advantage over the former. In an ideal world, that advantage would be their cleaving prowess and it would be enough. However, given neckson's poor bossing design, there is very little relevance for cleaving, leaving their high HP and ease of washing as the primary remaining merit.

    I completely agree with you that we should make melee classes more viable by means other than HP barriers. You however have failed to provide any suggestions for how this might be accomplished and in effect are putting the cart before the horse. You're not the first person to simply suggest that washing be made easier and you will not be the last.

    If I'm maybe coming across as cold, it is not personal and is only because this community has already seen numerous threads about washing time after time (most often by newcomers) with no real solutions or new ideas ever being presented.

    Let's first talk about how the melee classes can be made more viable before we talk about implementing something that would entirely marginalize melee classes are they are now.
     
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  16. fael
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    fael Nightshadow

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    I disagree with the idea of hp washing being a class balancing issue. Sure, you can consider that, but that's not something good lol.

    Many ppl picked melee washing friendly attackers over ranged dps jobs initially because of hp washing, but I don't think that's something we should be proud of. We should balance jobs with content and if that's not possible, then with damage.

    And I think Staff is going into this direction since latest balance changes buffed Hero and Shad single target DPM, and also buffed Drk DPM through zerk, and they also released the challenged systems to get hp.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  17. OP
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    PumpkinJuice
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    PumpkinJuice Orange Mushroom

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    I believe that we both agree on the same ends, but not the same means.

    You pointed out that melees have the slight advantages of high HP and the ease of washing over range classes as the remaining merit, and we should not speed up HP washing which will remove the merit away from melees.

    My point is that from what I see, the slight advantage you spoke of only works against new players and not the state of the current game, due to this server being 7 years. The ones actually bossing are veterans and they mostly should have washed ranged character. In a sense, melees are already completely obsolete, with they primary remaining merit chipped out due to the server's age indicating player's progression.

    So what I am saying is that even if we hasten HP washing, it does not change much at all currently. Melees will still remain at the same position, being able to contribute to lesser. Of course this is only in the bossing scene, many players still play melees out of passion, and can still be brought along a run. Lesser contribution is still contribution.

    Balancing is already being done from what Fael said. I believe that instead of waiting for changes to actually be done first for melees, we can solve the HP washing problem first, and focus on the balancing part for melees.

    No worries I don't think you are cold or anything. Actually I think that I am worse than you lol. So I also want to say that if I come across as cold, rude or anything, it is definitely not my intention.
     
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  18. Selquin
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    Selquin Headless Horseman

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    I think your two suggestions would be a bad idea solely due to how powerful multimage sweeping would become in terms of NX generation(its already the one meta method of significantly accelerating washing), but in principle I am not opposed to offering players opportunities to increase their HP in exchange for work/time. Take t10 ring for example, it is a relatively difficult grind, but it is fair for the amount of HP (and stats of course) that it provides. In the past events tended to offer greater opportunities to farm large amounts of AP resets and PQs like LPQ and CWKPQ use to reward greater amounts of nx, I think the removal of these perks were a step in a wrong direction. HP is just another stat, it should be thought of the same way as range/avoid/level, and players should be able to expend effort to improve the stat as long as the methods are not overpowered.
     
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  19. Zorele
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    Zorele Slimy

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    I completely agree with the notion that allowing hp washing to be sped up in exchange for effort is fair. It's definitely an issue for hp washing to take as long as it does. It is an undeniable truth that melee attackers are esentially worse than ranged attackers in the most important aspects of the game (namely damage) with the exception of hp which can be overcome by washing.

    Challenge system further highlights this problem by making it so every class has "functionally" the same hp (bare amount each one needs for pb) which means that the future of the server should focus on balancing classes strictly on combat power and utility since for the average player hp will be equalized.

    With that being said, this is one way i'd considering speeding things up as the class balancing happens down the line. In the spirit of keeping ap resets as a somewhat limited item i would propose an untradable token/coin system that would allow you to trade coins for resets (and perhaps other misc items to benefit non washers, maybe a large amount of this currency could be traded for an mp2) this is obviously tricky to implement but the idea is to reward these untradable tokens from bossing at a better rate and perhaps mobbing at a rare rate(probably butcher mage rates because of multimaging) but from any mob, similar to gacha and nx. I'm sure there are a lot of tricky things about the implementation of a system as such but i do believe effort should have a bigger impact in the amount of time saved. I also believe this would give a lot of bossing incentive without directly affecting the economy since having issues finding bossing groups is a common complaint i've noticed in recent times.
     
  20. fael
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    fael Nightshadow

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    Maybe by doing that you will end up losing even more coins in currency. Doesn't looks like a good option imho.
     

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