Leech Mechanic Discussion

aaaa buy leech while you can@@@

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This has been a point of mystery for bossing exp. Would your suggested change affect exp distribution based on how much damage one deals? If so, would that make certain stronger classes more favorable for progressing exp-wise via bossing while making others less so?

 

It's possible to carry without dealing the most damage, good suggestion though.

 

I personally think that leech isn't bad in it's current state but training is. For lower levels (before like 65) I think it's pretty balanced, but at around level 65 Leech becomes incredibly quick. From that point on it's almost not worth it to train anymore, except for niche scenarios like CB Meso Bombing, DrK CD's training, or F/P Poison Training.

It's especially a problem in late 3rd job where "good" training spots become incredibly costly for potions and it can take 3 or more hours of training per level, with no power-spikes in sight due to the strongest skills already being maxed out. It's especially tough when you have base INT and are essentially crippled until you decide to wash out.

I understand that this game is about chasing the dragon. Getting there is disappointing, and the journey is the best part, but when you're treading through honey it's hard to stay motivated to keep pursuing your goals.

I think changes need to happen in 3rd job so that Training and Leeching are closer in speed. At this point I'd be willing to accept a Leech nerf to close the gap, bit I'd much prefer a buff to Training and Questing in this stage of the game. Or at least a PQ for 86/101-120. PQ buffs would be nice too, let's get some PQ buffs.

 

I much prefer tankier mobs that yields higher exp for grinding purposes. aka LHC

 

As a new player on my first character here, leach is to expensive to matter much for newer players. Leach being nerfed would improve the new player experience if anything, as you will be on a more level playing field with funded characters.

 

At some point it's faster to grind Mesos and buy leech than train. Late 3rd job as a ranged class is painful, especially with base INT. A good hustle is selling ETC items that people are too lazy to grind and would rather just buy. Things like Ellin Ring Quest ETC's. I've made a few millions selling pig ribbons. You'd be amazed at the things people will buy.

 

I feel at that point it just shows how busted leach is compared to normal lvling.

 

Although it's a minor discrepancy, I think it's a little dangerous to imply that damage dealers are the ones carrying a run and should therefore be rewarded more. There are necessary roles in every composition, and some naturally deal more damage than others. IMO, if rewards were biased towards certain roles, it'd go directly against the spirit of team play.

A bit exaggerated for emphasis, but:

• Should archers choose not to SE their NLs?
• Should bishops choose not to dispel weapon cancels in order to prolong their multiple head targets?
• Is ressing a dead party member griefing your own exp?

It feels a little weird to me to give even more advantages to certain classes when they're already at the top of the meta (damage is king).
I don't mean to derail this thread any further, but unfortunately bossing leech has direct ties to regular exp leeching too.

IMO, a cleaner implementation would be to penalize people for being afk by reducing leeched exp if you've gone inactive for a certain duration.

 

Shouldn't the difference between the two ultimately be double what you're posing -- the pure leecher gets 1.25m exp less, but the attacker should also be getting more. To represent the disparity between the two, you'd need to show the difference between the upper end and lower end, not just the individual change.

That said, I still think it's more a matter of principal than anything -- it just seems weird to give classes that already do well for themselves an arbitrary buff when the suggestion is meant to tackle a completely different problem. Personally, I'd rather look into active/inactive play states and look for ways to implement that into a bonus/penalty system.

 

DMG gained from SE should be instead added to archer's dpm. Same goes with SI.

 

What I had in mind was something in-between the current system and what you had proposed. I think a reduced exp gain is fine for those who are just sitting on rope and afking, something like a 90:25 split or maybe even a 100:10 split (no bad feelings if your grinding partner goes afk for a bit -- you can leech them without getting your own exp penalized). I also think active players should be rewarded, like an 80:45 split (this might make shaolin a little too strong, but it'd translate better in larger maps/parties with more active attackers like ToT). In bossing, you'd see basically the same as it currently is at 80:40, and pure leech 'attackers' would be penalized if they aren't actively attacking, though I could see a case where leveling with INTs would become more annoying (but you're also griefing your teammates so it might be deserved).

 

While it can never be truly eliminated, leech is definitely too powerful for this server currently. That said, it can't be touched at the moment. Washing culture is dependent on it, and too much monetary flow is even wrapped up in leech to safely hit (as is apple generation imo, but that's a different topic). For their characters to level as well as to earn money, players need leech.

Currently washing isn't optional, and players must wash to succeed. Even under the challenge system, washing will still be optimal, but at least its presence somewhat helps to remove the current "untouchable" status that leech has presently. Leveling a character on a rope can and should be more difficult than it is, but there's a limit to how "unfair" these kind of changes can be. I'm personally closer to the side of going nuclear and giving everyone high class-based hp caps, and working from there (Of course wash lobbyists will cry foul over their years of pushing the free nx button and actively sitting on a rope until endgame). Players wash their characters higher and higher because they have to for their own self-preservation, and thus half of class balance gets thrown out the window in turn. Players need washing, and washing needs leeching.

The dedicated players will still find a way to play the game by not playing the game, but at least in an ideal scenario afk leech (as well as farming and even bossing to an extent imo) should not be more rewarding than actively playing the game. Things shouldn't necessarily be *hard*, but concepts like full map attacks and even pets enable far too much degeneracy in this game. You can't even buff 95% of maps without instead buffing BigMage and/or BigRoar. Leeching as a concept can't and won't ever be eradicated completely, but at least it's efficacy can be reduced without the full meme attack, and maybe finally pave the way towards making the necessary improvements to the mobbing/grinding experience without creating the next big spot to "sit and spell".

Players need washing; washing needs leeching; leeching needs full meme attacks.

In my opinion, the ease and viability of leech can and should be nerfed, but cannot until washing is truly deadge- and challenge wont kill it.

 

The only thing you gain from leeching is time. Leeched characters are the same as non-leeched except for the ones that are being washed. Which is a different conversation.

Leeching is also great for single target classes that struggle at 90-120. Just marry an alt and farm those apples to afford leech and you will level faster than you would solo grinding.

 

Nice thread to follow!

IMO it can work, but need to know how will be in bossing situations like ovv said, and in maps like 7f, i think the main problem is some levels range miss mobs to grind, like 11x late til 12x earlie (if you read guides you only find things like "save money for leech")

 

Making an alt and multi clienting feels like your playing a completely different game. That does not feel like nostalgic maple to me.

It's just speed yes, but it's still kindah annoying knowing others players are lvling far faster then you by abusing a mechanic that was intended to imorove party play with others.