Discussion on balance changes to sweeping.

idk about u guys but i feel like a monkey for not understanding what condescending means (and seeing that 4x in a phrase)

 

Not all maps are created equal. Only those maps with the potential to exceed the agreed-upon levels of meso generation will pose a problem. There's no need for staff to engage in any sort of cat-and-mouse games here—you have the tools at your disposal to assess and adjust maps pre-emptively. You need to think like a "sweaty" player. Ask yourself: What criteria should a good farming map have? Which maps are worth testing on the aforementioned basis? A simple formula outlines all of these criteria:

Meso generation/hour = total map spawn count x average meso dropped per mob x 360

Where it is assumed that:

• All mobs are killed simultaneously
• Meso Up boosts are factored in
• Spawn cycles occur every 10 seconds
• Looting efficiency is perfect

For the sake of simplicity, we'll exclude mesos earned through equip sales (data regarding equipment drop rates aren't available to us anyway), as well as potion costs. The take away here is that any map with a high total spawn count becomes an ideal candidate. The average meso dropped per mob isn't as influential given that its ranges are fairly consistent for monsters above level 80. Now that that's out of the way, let's apply the to formula to a few good farming map candidates (using Library data).

Spoiler: Ulu

Ulu Estate I: (27 x 1207 x 360) + (25 x 1232 x 360) = 22,820,040 mesos/hour

Ulu Estate II: (16 x 1232 x 360) + (14 x 1262 x 360) = 13,456,800 mesos/hour

Ulu City Center: (33 x 1346 x 360) = 15,990,480 mesos/hour

Destroyed Park II: (34 x 1363 x 360) = 16,683,120 mesos/hour

Spoiler: Aqua

Deep Sea Gorge II: (48 x 1203 x 360) + (10 x 1237 x 360) = 25,241,040 mesos/hour

Dangerous Sea Gorge II: (28 x 1262 x 360) + (6 x 1247 x 360) = 15,415,020 mesos/hour

Spoiler: Japan

Ninja Castle Hallway: (28 x 1189 x 360) + (9 x 1328 x 360) = 16,287,840 mesos/hour

Spoiler: Leafre

Nest of a Dead Dragon: (13 x 1345 x 360) + (7 x 1353 x 360) = 9,704,160 mesos/hour

The Dragon Nest Left Behind: (9 x 1353 x 360) + (8 x 1345 x 360) = 8,257,320 mesos/hour

Spoiler: Malaysia

Fantasy Theme Park III: (26 x 1237 x 360) = 11,578,320 mesos/hour

 

Have you assumed that every single mob will always drop a meso bag?

 

Yes.

 

Library monster count is usually not the same as actual mob monster count. For example if you count the monsters in ulu1, you will see that it is around 40, not 52. Furthermore, at some maps like temple of time, monsters spawn in chunks (where it takes 2 cycles for the map to recover to full spawn).

 

I am aware the Library data aren't entirely accurate. Perfect accuracy isn't the point of this exercise. It's meant to be viewed as a framework. With all other criteria being equal, spawn count appears to be the most significant factor in determining multi-mage meso generation for a given map.

 

I think you can stop right there.

 

What valid points did you make. Could you clarify them in bullet point format? I'm having trouble understanding your points.

 

The assumption isn't right, because:
1. Not every mob drops mesos on death
2. You are assuming that for example at ulu1, you can kill every single mob in the map immediately on spawn. I guess on every map you're assuming a infinite mages (for example, quad mage at ulu 1), with mage ultimates covering every single mob directly on spawn, which isn't common usually, but i suppose popularized in ulu1.

Either way though, i think even assuming maximum efficiency looting/sweeping, your numbers have been inflated a fair amount, and that its not possible to attain anywhere close to those raw meso numbers.

 

The raw numbers will ultimately be lower, but presumably the 65% drop rate applies to all mobs. If that's the case, the final numbers can simply be modified by the same factor.

 

The calculations aren't intended to be comprehensive or perfectly accurate. If the numbers turn out to be much lower, that's a good thing, isn't it? The exact same formula was used in each case, and are amenable to standard modifiers. The calculations are meant to demonstrate that only a handful of maps have the potential to hit levels of meso generation that would be deemed unacceptable.

 

And these are the kind of people that demand the staff to communicate to them more smh

 

It means they're being mean to eachother, best stay out of this thread.

 

1. The purpose of the changes is to decrease meso generation. The IRL comparison would be if you suddenly severely limited a central bank's ability to print money.
2. The effect of decreased meso generation will not be seen until the current meso in the market is circulated out through meso sinks. I'll give a short example of this below, but until people's spending habits adapt to the lowered amount of mesos coming in, prices will not drop.
3. Most evaluations that people have made are based on the assumption that WS/CS/5-6 leech prices will not change. If the decreased meso generation works as intended, this should not be the case.
4. With less meso in circulation, the purchasing power of an equivalent amount of meso increases. Prices should go down due to the deflation. Essentially, less money is being printed, so money is 'worth' more.
5. In theory, the price of everything should decrease, whether it be items or services (such as leech). This is the intention of the change.
6. My point is that we cannot evaluate the effect, usefulness, and impact of this change until we give it enough time to take effect, namely to allow meso sinks to normalise the 'new normal' of meso generation.

The example of meso sinks I would give is as follows:
- If someone has an income of $10/week, and spend $8/week, over the course of 10 weeks, he would save $20.
- If his income suddenly drops to $5/week, he could theoretically still afford to maintain his $8 a week spending for another 6 weeks, because he would earn $30, and spend $48, in addition to $20 in savings.
- Despite the money income decreasing, he may not decrease his spending immediately, or at all until he runs out of money. He might just not care until he's broke, or take some time to plan out how to change his spending before doing so.

Applying this to ML, its like saying that people who saved mesos before, for example, might still have 100m in their bank. They can still afford buy 5-6 leech at 10+m/h for 10hrs.

It isn't until they realize that, "damn, the amount of effort that it takes me to earn 50m now is the same as 100m before" that they might start reconsidering paying 10m/h.

There is a difference between person to person transactions and meso sinks. When you pay a leecher 10m, the total 'pie' of mesos owned by players doesn't change (besides tax). Meso sinks (such as buying pots, or tax, or crafting etc.) reduce the amount of mesos in the game. When meso generation >>> meso sinks, you get inflation, which the staff evidently saw as a problem.

Hence, the meso sinks have to clear out the 'savings' of people so that the new meso generation normal is actually indicative of the actual amount of mesos circulating in the game. At that point, we can start to consider whether the changes had its desired effect.

Again, I had zero input in this change, and this is just my analysis of what they are trying to do economically, and I think it makes sense, but it will take a significant amount of time for markets to correct themselves after this change. Any knee jerk reactions at this point miss the long term goal that it was trying to achieve.

 

I think the issue is that your assumption of acceptable is just on a different level.

People were talking about nerfing multimage ulu 1 because shivering was making 20m/h, including all equip drops (and gach? can't remember if he took an average value in his thread). This was considered a 'wtf this is insane levels of meso', considering it was pure meso generation, and not person to person transactions.

You said you felt that 30m in meso generation should be an acceptable amount to earn. The values of acceptability are just too far apart.

 

Are you saying Gobys is approx 15.4m/hr using the formula? this is literally all the data you need for gobys https://forum.maplelegends.com/index.php?threads/road-to-2b-mesos-goby-style.28326/
it's actually 10m max mesos. IF you're lucky with equips. its less than 5.5m/hr PURE mesos.

 

It's been a while since I looked at Shivering's thread, but I'm pretty sure he was averaging close to 30m/hour at some point. That figure probably didn't include pot costs, though. As I stated before, my definition of an acceptable meso generation rate is based on time investment. Staff seem to disagree that 30m/hr is an acceptable maximum figure, but I've yet to see proposed alternatives. Keep in mind that at this point, it's seemingly all speculative. There don't appear to be any data which corroborate the existence of widespread inflation, or any projections for that matter. Personally, I'd like to know if any tangible, reproducible evidence led to the looting changes. Was it based on isolated increases in WS/CS prices?

 

HOT TAKE: These "formulas" are just for people that are too lazy to put in the work and try it out themselves

 

Conceptually I can actually get behind your reasoning, but I would challenge this chain of logic at point #1. I am skeptical that the sweeping changes will have a large influence on the overall rate of meso generation. Yes we have all seen shivering journals documenting his multi mage adventures, but keep in mind that meso/hr does not tell the whole story. There are only a handful of people who commit to similar multi mage farming strats, and these people can only farm for a couple hours a day at best. Meanwhile look at maps like GS2 and ulu2 which are full almost 24/7, even though the rate of meso generation per unit map is much lower the total amount of mesos farmed from these maps altogether far surpass that of the multi magers. Furthermore, ulu2 and GS2 are virtually unaffected by sweeping changes (at least as far as meso generation goes), so I find it unlikely that the total rate of meso generation will change by very much.

That said sweeping changes do affect other common meta maps like skeles/petris/shaolin (particularly petris), so I could be wrong.