Marksmen should be buffed further

^Yeah I think this hits the nail on the head really, i feel like even if MM outdamaged BMs by a much more substantial amount most players still wouldn't pick MM in their current state. Because who wants to play a job that's just the more boring version of another class (literally because as has been repeated ad-infinitum, archers exist for SE and ranged dmg)?

This is a difference that cannot be quantified and there are no graphs that can prove it, but the quality of life difference that hurricane brings just completely blows anything and everything out of the water. It's just much more effort to play an MM and achieve the exact same results in terms of utility and damage as a bowmaster; even if I'm dealing a pittance of extra damage at perfect gear (which is something 99.999% players dont do), I'd rather pick the character that gives me smooth gameplay.

If I'm a newbie looking at 4th job skill videos for both archers, I will see one class that forms an angelic aura around my bow and does this machine gun skill, while the other dude shoots arrows 4 by 4 (hey, didn't I already see this in the 3rd job skill video?) and once in a while shoots a 199,999 arrow out that looks no different from a normal attack. The difference is really so similar to Paladins vs Heroes. Paladins technically have the higher stats, but look so much less cool and are much clunkier to play.

For this reason, I think allowing MMs to outdamage BM in theory is not an issue, and I definitely think adding some sort of different role to give the MM its role would be the best way to go, like the weap. cancel penetration thing or another cleave suggestion I also saw.

If I were a new player, knowing that MM have this very unique utility to deal sustained damage through weap cancels would be a very big plus factor for me to pick him. Rather than the current state where they are just best described as "same as bowmasters but without hurricane, you probably deal more damage throughout early 4th job but lategame bowmasters probably overtake you kekw".

 

I also like the idea of buffing MM booster to a point where they don't need SI. Currently BM is the only class in the game that can reach 100% of their damage purely on self buffs(shadowers are close too, but alas even they benefit slightly from SE). If you are sufficiently washed and have mw20 you will never have to beg for buffs like the rest of the plebs. I can't tell you how useful this is, you don't have your dpm held captive by unreliable archers like the NLs nor do you have to depend on a non-existent buccs like the warriors. For many people, this is a major reason why they pick BM. The fact that MM does not have this incredible quality no doubt contributes greatly to the lack of MMs.

 

Hard disagree on this one because booster is a 2nd job skill, and buffing it by that much completely breaks the balance of early game, not to mention breaks the symmetry aesthetics of skills even harder (why does only this class's booster skill gives +4 speed instead of +2?). I also don't think there's merit in trying to make classes completely independent of buffs; this is supposed to be an MMO after all and trying to reduce class interaction is just weird.

 

I think I understand your view better now, but let me re-emphasize the original graph did show Marksman outdamage Bowmasters in the late game and I still think that that would be unhealthy, however this seems to have been misinformation.

I said I dont agree with ur view not I dont agree with ur suggestions, (although the buff increase I dont agree with looking how that is a nerf to buccaneer), the snipe idea is an intresting view, however multiple people in both threads have been saying its fine for Marksman to out damage Bowmasters even with perfect gear and I keep trying to show the downsides to that way of thinking.

I mean I keep saying I believe the buffs were done marvelously, and Bowmasters and Marksman are in a good sweetspot now, the gap is wide but not impossible for bowmaster to overcome (change this and again, why play bowmaster at all? just so you can afk hurricane? that is just sad). It takes 220 w.attack or so to close the gap and that is a lot of work. If the only change to happen would be snipe hitting through w.cancel (which is a cool idea) I would be fine with that I mean that is a tiny dps increase.

In my opinion the class identity of Bowmaster is: more work for higher payout late game, so I don't at all disagree with quality of life improvements for Marksman like blind working on bosses or piercing being used mid air or snipe hitting though w.cancel all buffs proposed by regal. I do however oppose any buff that would threaten the higher work for higher payout equation.
If people disagree with that identity of Bowmaster and instead see Bowmaster as an easier archer whose class identity is more like that they can afk with hurricane, then we fundamentally disagree about the goal we want to reach and we (me and that view) will never be able to see eye to eye. I am opposing this view of Bowmaster that I am reading here and elsewhere as posted by some people.

 

The longer this goes on, the more I think you arent defending brewmaster end-game damage, but rather your pick of bowmaster purely for its endgame damage. The buff independence and cleaner, more usable skillset are both huge factors that wont affect their popularity/usage even if they are lower dpm than a marksman with a buff that has been objectively removed from the game (lulbucc main btw). Without any other distinguishing qualities than just dpm, the mm requires more at the endgame, simply due to its buff reliance. I mentioned it earlier or in another thread, but that's huge in party comp building. The slot that has to be spent on a bucc in an mm party can be filled with another nl instead in a bm party. If they are otherwise viewed exactly the same in use for only dmg and se (awful pierce need not apply), then mm SHOULD have slightly more damage. And reality will probably allow BM to pull out more realistic dpm in fights like ht anyways.

Add me to the "cant see eye-to-eye" list, but I feel like you argue bm should be better than mm simply because you are a bm.

 

Look I respect your view and its a strong argument about the team comps. I believe I have said all that I have wanted to say on this matter as well and we just don't see eye-to-eye then.
And even if my arguments were all purely based on bias and my wish to be as relatively strong as possible, the arguments would still have to stand on their own. I can't prove or disprove my true motives nor do I completely know them myself, I did say I might be biased in the original message of my thread. I believe my arguments are rational and not completely born out of bias and all that is left is to see what the balance team will decide themselfes after taking in all the arguments.

 

As always, I struggle to care about early games changes since it affects such a small portion of the total playtime, even if you made it so that archers couldn't wear a bow until level 120 I'd still be convinced BM is the best class. But then again, I am pretty crazy with that take so maybe you have a point there. As for the 2nd point, I feel like this is not so much encouraging class independence as much as it is putting MM on the same level as BM. The class interaction wills till be there anyways, since archers will always be sought out for SE anyways.

 

Really aprecciate the effort made on this and all the feedback you are giving.

I think that Snipe hitting Through Weapon Defense would be the cream of the top to finish MMs Rework, since it will give it a 'bonus' even on late game against bosses that weapon cancel a lot, and will also make its main Skill way more realiable, thus improving its identity as a true 'Sniper'

 

Kinda of funny when the class get buffed and people tend to ask for more.
Theres a reason why crossbow for att are much more cheaper than bow for att.
Well, I bet your studied the class because you make your second ob advancement
You chose the class, deal with it.

 

That's ridiculous logic. All the classes are supposed to be roughly equal in power level; MM's aren't a cheaper, more affordable starter home compared to BM mcmansions.

Not the mention the price difference is marginal at best. We're talking saving maybe a mil for 30% scrolls and a couple hundred k for 60% scrolls. An analogy would be like if MM were a plain hamburger from Mcdonalds, then BM are a full combo from 5-Guy's with the works. But for some reason the 5-Guy's combo cost just $2 more than the hamburger.

 

Not to mention the availability of MMs late game weapon (and its price)

 

Unfortunately, Maplestory isn't a MOBA game. A strong early game is fantastic in MOBA's because you can translate that early game dominance into late game power; in an mmorpg there's no such thing. MM's don't train at any special place that only they can grind at, nor do they do bosses BM's can't do. All ranged classes either get leeched, or grind at the same places at about the same speed. Their contribution to bosses are also roughly equal (as in meh until later levels).

I would even argue that "strong early, weak late" is poor design for any class in an mmorpg. An rpg game by design necessitates "weak early strong late" or else there's really no point to playing that class. Nobody wants to get weaker relative to every other class as they put in more effort.

 

Yes, but power is all relative anyways. As long as a class isn't substantially worse than the others, it's imperceptible. The real buff MM need isn't a straight damage buff, but a QoL buff. Their only 4th job attacking skill is snipe, and it's unsatisfying to use. You blink and you've missed it. Piercing Arrow needs a code rework so that MM can actually use it to grind and maybe even boss. Then people will actually have fun with the class.

 

LOL.
Time to start a thread on buffing bm for early game so that there is a balance for both class?
Since MM get snipe in early game and BM can only do few Ks dmg?
So we can achieve the so called 'balance'.

Asking for skills that can override weapon defence?
Then the next thing for improvement is for MM to deal the highest damage as for other class?
Might as well be a gamemaster class since you aim to override things that other jobs cant accomplish?