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Marksmen should be buffed further

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by AioriaX, May 23, 2020.

  1. OP
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    AioriaX Selkie Jr.

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    It was never my view, nor have I ever said that its healthy for the game to buff Marksmen to be so overpowered that Bowmasters fall far behind (a point where Bowmasters can't reach).
    Presently, Bowmasters still outdamage Marksmen (even with SI).

    Since your sentences have fallen so farfetched from my initial suggestion, I will reiterate:
    The suggestion was:
    1. to just let Snipe ignore weapon cancel
    2. to buff booster speed to match SI (Not to be faster than SI) so that Marksmen do not need to rely for additional SI buff (which I have agreed that would be of negative value to Buccaneer functionality/popularity)

    I repeat, that the goal of buffing Marksmen here is NOT to outdamage Bowmasters. The intention was to increase the attractiveness of playing a Marksman given how boring and unattractive their skillsets are, that even their one unique skill SNIPE can only be used every 5 seconds to deal 200k damage to a single target mob, compared to Heaven's Hammer that hits the whole map for 200k each mob AND ignores weapon cancel. (No offence to all Marksmen out there, I'm still PRO-buff MM)

    You're too focused on fearing that Marksmen POSSIBLY out-damage the class you're playing that you're forgetting how unpopular Marksmen actually are.
    (I say 'possibly' because at our current standings they DO NOT OUT-DAMAGE Bowmasters)

    At our current standing, there has been only:
    2 level 200 Marksman versus 10 lv 200 Bowmasters (I included Charlotebeetle) (% out of lv 200 Archers = 16%),
    9 out of 42 Archers who are level 180 and above (% out of lv 180+ Archers = 21%),
    13 out of 67 Archers who are lv 170 and above (% out of lv 170+ = 20%).

    Are you trying to say this is healthy and you're happy with this and want it to remain as it is? - so long as Bowmasters don't get out damaged by Marksmen?

    The goal is NOT to equalize the population, but to bring up its popularity/attractiveness.
    The number of Marksmen who actually hit late game which is lv 170 and above is scarce because of how unattractive it is - Boring skills, snipe only every 5 seconds, lose-out in DPM versus bowmasters, require SI to actually max out their DPM (WHICH STILL TRAILS BEHIND TO BOWMASTERS), while both jobs have Sharp Eyes.

    If anything at all, you fear that after buffing further, people will question why should they play a bowmaster? - Bowmasters have such an attractive skill set. Hurricane is a piece of art. Plus you have Concentrate which gives you a massive attack buff for a given duration, and Hamstring which slows down even end-game bosses (which is essential and extremely helpful when battling Bodyguard A, Nameless Monster and even Anego - all of which are late-game bosses for ranged attackers) Bowmasters are actually one of the classes in the game that can stand independently by themselves without requiring additional party buffs from another job (second class is possibly a shadower, given that they're both adequately-washed, and maybe a buccaneer).

    But at our current standing, the actual question is, why should ANYONE play a marksman?
    You mention that they offer something to different type of players but at our current standing, Marksmen have nothing to offer above bowmasters unless that someone actually likes playing a Marksman for their own personal reason, or would like to take a challenge of playing one, or just plainly wants to be different from others.

    Quote: The legendary OpTiC and LiesDotCom (both whom are our lv 200 Marksmen in the server) once said upon hitting lv 200 : "For all new players whom are thinking of creating a Marksman, please choose differently."

    Different players reap different kinds of rewards from the game - only a minority aim to be the top DPS in the server. Everyone else enjoys the social part of the game, enjoys the fun playing a character with enormous skillset, while others just play it casually like you said, but still aim to reach end-game levelling/bossing. I doubt that alot of bowmasters will say they reap 0 from the game just because they lose out in DPM in early stages versus a bowmaster. HIGHLY DOUBT IT.

    Right now, had marksmen actually done a marginal amount of damage more than a bowmaster, that is possibly one reason that attracts players to make a Marksman - which is why I said that if that happens to be the case after having snipe ignore weapon cancel, then that is a one pro-point to choose a Marksman. It wasn't the primary intention to have this suggestion to out-DPM a bowmaster, it was just to make Marksmen feel that their skillsets have better utility in different situations of the game/bossing (instead of everyone AFK-ing during weapon cancel, one such attacker can actually do damage still).

    I still highly doubt that after having Snipe ignore weapon cancel that people would actually choose more Marksmen over Bowmasters given that the skillsets are still not as attractive, but for the very least it would make more players play them and not feel so shitty about their class that they carry them to late/end-game.
     
    • Agree Agree x 7
  2. xadra
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    xadra Capt. Latanica

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    ^Yeah I think this hits the nail on the head really, i feel like even if MM outdamaged BMs by a much more substantial amount most players still wouldn't pick MM in their current state. Because who wants to play a job that's just the more boring version of another class (literally because as has been repeated ad-infinitum, archers exist for SE and ranged dmg)?

    This is a difference that cannot be quantified and there are no graphs that can prove it, but the quality of life difference that hurricane brings just completely blows anything and everything out of the water. It's just much more effort to play an MM and achieve the exact same results in terms of utility and damage as a bowmaster; even if I'm dealing a pittance of extra damage at perfect gear (which is something 99.999% players dont do), I'd rather pick the character that gives me smooth gameplay.

    If I'm a newbie looking at 4th job skill videos for both archers, I will see one class that forms an angelic aura around my bow and does this machine gun skill, while the other dude shoots arrows 4 by 4 (hey, didn't I already see this in the 3rd job skill video?) and once in a while shoots a 199,999 arrow out that looks no different from a normal attack. The difference is really so similar to Paladins vs Heroes. Paladins technically have the higher stats, but look so much less cool and are much clunkier to play.

    For this reason, I think allowing MMs to outdamage BM in theory is not an issue, and I definitely think adding some sort of different role to give the MM its role would be the best way to go, like the weap. cancel penetration thing or another cleave suggestion I also saw.

    If I were a new player, knowing that MM have this very unique utility to deal sustained damage through weap cancels would be a very big plus factor for me to pick him. Rather than the current state where they are just best described as "same as bowmasters but without hurricane, you probably deal more damage throughout early 4th job but lategame bowmasters probably overtake you kekw".
     
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  3. OP
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    AioriaX Selkie Jr.

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    Like i said again and again, the intention was not for Marksmen to out-DPM bowmasters but to increase their utility so that they are more attractive to players.
    However, even if they do out-DPM Bowmasters in the end, they will ONLY OUT-DPM BOWMASTERS if you CALCULATE DPM INCLUSIVE OF WEAPON CANCEL DURATION. - this is because the suggestion only buffs MM during weapon cancels (Snipe ignoring weapon cancel)

    Total DPM excluding weapon cancel duration will MAINTAIN AT THE EXACT SAME AMOUNT.
    Even if suggestion (2) was passed, and booster was granted at SI speed, Total DPM will still MAINTAIN AT THE EXACT SAME AMOUNT.

    So how in the world would Marksmen actually out-DPM bowmasters TO A POINT WHERE THEY CAN'T REACH?

    But even if they do, it won't lead to an enormous surge in their popularity because the skillsets are still the same.
    I think Paladins VS Heroes & DK will be the perfect example of this case.
    Paladins out-DPM both their cousins in a single-target DPM calculation by a margin but due to their boring skillset they are still the unpopular class among their cousins.

    So I don't see why this suggestion will be unhealthy at all.
     
  4. Selquin
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    Selquin Headless Horseman

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    I also like the idea of buffing MM booster to a point where they don't need SI. Currently BM is the only class in the game that can reach 100% of their damage purely on self buffs(shadowers are close too, but alas even they benefit slightly from SE). If you are sufficiently washed and have mw20 you will never have to beg for buffs like the rest of the plebs. I can't tell you how useful this is, you don't have your dpm held captive by unreliable archers like the NLs nor do you have to depend on a non-existent buccs like the warriors. For many people, this is a major reason why they pick BM. The fact that MM does not have this incredible quality no doubt contributes greatly to the lack of MMs.
     
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  5. RegalStar
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    RegalStar Nightshadow

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    Hard disagree on this one because booster is a 2nd job skill, and buffing it by that much completely breaks the balance of early game, not to mention breaks the symmetry aesthetics of skills even harder (why does only this class's booster skill gives +4 speed instead of +2?). I also don't think there's merit in trying to make classes completely independent of buffs; this is supposed to be an MMO after all and trying to reduce class interaction is just weird.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  6. GGoals
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    I think I understand your view better now, but let me re-emphasize the original graph did show Marksman outdamage Bowmasters in the late game and I still think that that would be unhealthy, however this seems to have been misinformation.

    I said I dont agree with ur view not I dont agree with ur suggestions, (although the buff increase I dont agree with looking how that is a nerf to buccaneer), the snipe idea is an intresting view, however multiple people in both threads have been saying its fine for Marksman to out damage Bowmasters even with perfect gear and I keep trying to show the downsides to that way of thinking.

    I mean I keep saying I believe the buffs were done marvelously, and Bowmasters and Marksman are in a good sweetspot now, the gap is wide but not impossible for bowmaster to overcome (change this and again, why play bowmaster at all? just so you can afk hurricane? that is just sad). It takes 220 w.attack or so to close the gap and that is a lot of work. If the only change to happen would be snipe hitting through w.cancel (which is a cool idea) I would be fine with that I mean that is a tiny dps increase.

    In my opinion the class identity of Bowmaster is: more work for higher payout late game, so I don't at all disagree with quality of life improvements for Marksman like blind working on bosses or piercing being used mid air or snipe hitting though w.cancel all buffs proposed by regal. I do however oppose any buff that would threaten the higher work for higher payout equation.
    If people disagree with that identity of Bowmaster and instead see Bowmaster as an easier archer whose class identity is more like that they can afk with hurricane, then we fundamentally disagree about the goal we want to reach and we (me and that view) will never be able to see eye to eye. I am opposing this view of Bowmaster that I am reading here and elsewhere as posted by some people.
     
  7. iPippy
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    iPippy Nightshadow

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    The longer this goes on, the more I think you arent defending brewmaster end-game damage, but rather your pick of bowmaster purely for its endgame damage. The buff independence and cleaner, more usable skillset are both huge factors that wont affect their popularity/usage even if they are lower dpm than a marksman with a buff that has been objectively removed from the game (lulbucc main btw). Without any other distinguishing qualities than just dpm, the mm requires more at the endgame, simply due to its buff reliance. I mentioned it earlier or in another thread, but that's huge in party comp building. The slot that has to be spent on a bucc in an mm party can be filled with another nl instead in a bm party. If they are otherwise viewed exactly the same in use for only dmg and se (awful pierce need not apply), then mm SHOULD have slightly more damage. And reality will probably allow BM to pull out more realistic dpm in fights like ht anyways.

    Add me to the "cant see eye-to-eye" list, but I feel like you argue bm should be better than mm simply because you are a bm.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  8. GGoals
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    GGoals Mano

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    Look I respect your view and its a strong argument about the team comps. I believe I have said all that I have wanted to say on this matter as well and we just don't see eye-to-eye then.
    And even if my arguments were all purely based on bias and my wish to be as relatively strong as possible, the arguments would still have to stand on their own. I can't prove or disprove my true motives nor do I completely know them myself, I did say I might be biased in the original message of my thread. I believe my arguments are rational and not completely born out of bias and all that is left is to see what the balance team will decide themselfes after taking in all the arguments.
     
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  9. Selquin
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    Selquin Headless Horseman

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    As always, I struggle to care about early games changes since it affects such a small portion of the total playtime, even if you made it so that archers couldn't wear a bow until level 120 I'd still be convinced BM is the best class. But then again, I am pretty crazy with that take so maybe you have a point there. As for the 2nd point, I feel like this is not so much encouraging class independence as much as it is putting MM on the same level as BM. The class interaction wills till be there anyways, since archers will always be sought out for SE anyways.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    [​IMG]

    It's your friendly neighborhood UNSOLICITED GRAPH MAN! (lmao I'm cringing writing this but I'm bored af)

    BIGGG credits to jootajoota in making a better visualizsation of the post-change data. Now you can see how the classes function at all stages of the game, where we can see that Marksmen are actually faring really well from the change I feel.

    [​IMG]

    Being in a comparable state to BMs at 180, is a HUGE change, as I think the end-game for most players are around 160-180. Only the top percentile really go past that range. And when you do, with SI you actually manage to be pretty head to head until 190.


    [​IMG]

    So now what some BMs I've talked to have asked is "then why tf wouldn't I play a MM instead of a BM". MM class identity has always been strong early game damage and a weaker late game. And you can really see it with how they scale off weapon attack.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    The chart is based off of having just a clean weapon and lvl 200 stats (105 wa and 108 wa respectively). So the more gear you have, BMs scale way better. It also means if you use an apple or high attack potion, your damage is significantly increased, while MMs stay pretty consistent.

    Additional changes to late game MMs seem a bit unncessary given all this information, and there's a possibility early game MMs should be touched but I also think we have to observe a bit more...

    Edit: really sorry about huge graphs.. but this is what happens on a Mac.. T-T
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  11. HollyCrap
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    HollyCrap Capt. Latanica

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    Really aprecciate the effort made on this and all the feedback you are giving.

    I think that Snipe hitting Through Weapon Defense would be the cream of the top to finish MMs Rework, since it will give it a 'bonus' even on late game against bosses that weapon cancel a lot, and will also make its main Skill way more realiable, thus improving its identity as a true 'Sniper'
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
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  12. Quon
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    Quon Blue Snail

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    Kinda of funny when the class get buffed and people tend to ask for more.
    Theres a reason why crossbow for att are much more cheaper than bow for att.
    Well, I bet your studied the class because you make your second ob advancement
    You chose the class, deal with it.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  13. Xydan
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    Xydan Chronos

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    That's ridiculous logic. All the classes are supposed to be roughly equal in power level; MM's aren't a cheaper, more affordable starter home compared to BM mcmansions.

    Not the mention the price difference is marginal at best. We're talking saving maybe a mil for 30% scrolls and a couple hundred k for 60% scrolls. An analogy would be like if MM were a plain hamburger from Mcdonalds, then BM are a full combo from 5-Guy's with the works. But for some reason the 5-Guy's combo cost just $2 more than the hamburger.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  14. HollyCrap
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    HollyCrap Capt. Latanica

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    Not to mention the availability of MMs late game weapon (and its price)
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  15. OP
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    AioriaX Selkie Jr.

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    LMAO please. Prices fluctuate in the market according to supply and demand and thats basic general knowledge.
    The reason crossbow for ATT is much cheaper than bow for ATT is due to the lack of demand, and this lack of demand stems from lack in numbers of Marksmen in the server, and its unpopularity.

    When you don't have enough people wanting to buy/utilise that item in the market, it becomes harder for the seller to sell it at a high price, and hence they drop their prices to try and sell them away. This is in comparison to a much higher number of bowmasters in the server, and hence a higher number of people requiring the bow for ATT scrolls. Since more people want them, it's no-brainer that a seller would try to sell them at the highest price possible.

    So I don't get where you're going with this.
     
  16. Xydan
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    Xydan Chronos

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    Unfortunately, Maplestory isn't a MOBA game. A strong early game is fantastic in MOBA's because you can translate that early game dominance into late game power; in an mmorpg there's no such thing. MM's don't train at any special place that only they can grind at, nor do they do bosses BM's can't do. All ranged classes either get leeched, or grind at the same places at about the same speed. Their contribution to bosses are also roughly equal (as in meh until later levels).

    I would even argue that "strong early, weak late" is poor design for any class in an mmorpg. An rpg game by design necessitates "weak early strong late" or else there's really no point to playing that class. Nobody wants to get weaker relative to every other class as they put in more effort.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    Well RPGs also have multiple "late" stages, while as an MOBA will clearly have an "end" where you have a full build and you've reached your maximum potential. The same can't be said about RPGs, as the "late" game depends on the player. Some people will call 135 their end game. Most will say 155+ is the start of end game. Some will say 180+ and then only the very small minority will get to the 200 end game.

    [​IMG]

    If you can stay comparable till 190 with all the other classes (including NLs), isn't your goal of "strong late" still fine? (This is based on being unable to change the MM's strong early game, since snipe is just... well snipe xD
     
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  18. Xydan
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    Xydan Chronos

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    Yes, but power is all relative anyways. As long as a class isn't substantially worse than the others, it's imperceptible. The real buff MM need isn't a straight damage buff, but a QoL buff. Their only 4th job attacking skill is snipe, and it's unsatisfying to use. You blink and you've missed it. Piercing Arrow needs a code rework so that MM can actually use it to grind and maybe even boss. Then people will actually have fun with the class.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  19. Quon
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    Quon Blue Snail

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    LOL.
    Time to start a thread on buffing bm for early game so that there is a balance for both class?
    Since MM get snipe in early game and BM can only do few Ks dmg?
    So we can achieve the so called 'balance'.

    Asking for skills that can override weapon defence?
    Then the next thing for improvement is for MM to deal the highest damage as for other class?
    Might as well be a gamemaster class since you aim to override things that other jobs cant accomplish?
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  20. OP
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    AioriaX Selkie Jr.

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    Your sentence is pretty out-of-line and sounds more like someone who just wanted to post something to try and sound smart - given that the it was clearly stated in the suggestion that it was not to out-DPM bowmasters but to increase their popularity.

    I never said anything about equalising the population number either to achieve the 'so-called balance' you so-cleverly stated. Instead, I clearly mentioned too that its not to equalise it but again, to just increase their popularity, and I've pretty much summarized the percentages of late-game marksmen versus bowmasters in the server.

    Not feeling salty at all but you sound like someone who would just blindly reject change, and if you're not here to help in the suggestions page I don't see any significance of your reply, since most of us are here to suggest for changes to better gameplay such as:
    - boomerang step off ledges
    - heaven's hammer cooldown reduce
    - berzerk 30 activating at 50% hp instead of the original 40%

    Why don't you cleverly comment on those too, I can easily imagine you saying:
    'Asking for berzerk to activate at 50%? Then the next thing for improvement is to zerk at 100% hp? Might as well be a gamemaster class'

    Furthermore, ''overriding things that other class can't accomplish'' is such a weak argument given that each class already has their own unique skills that other classes could not accomplish. For example, a warrior can't accomplish the travelling speed of a night lord who can Flash Jump. So how does the suggestion of ''overriding something other classes can't accomplish'' be something farfetched to the point of needing your sarcasm?

    When a classroom of students requests for a lecturer change because they feel their lecturer is not up to par, it does not immediately equate to a request for the President of the country to come and sit-in as their teacher.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5

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