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Modify Neo Tokyo Staves and Wands

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Nicholas, Jul 9, 2020.

  1. Nicholas
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    Nicholas Mixed Golem

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    Since there is effectively no value in using NT staves for their stats or appearance, I wanted to suggest that we make the weapons much higher level with higher stats. I have two proposals to be considered:

    1: If there will be no timeless weapons in future versions.

    In the event that timeless weapons are not introduced with Pink bean, I think NT staves/wands should be buffed to be end-game weapons for mages. They could be made level 173/175 or 178/180 (staff/wand) and be given >200 TMA clean. Naturally their luk would be adjusted to (item level)+(2 or 3).

    This would make luk mages (bishops really) a bit more viable in the end game.

    2: If there will be timeless weapons

    If there will be timeless weapons, I make suggestion 1 but with respect to timeless weapons, and then suggest that NT wands and staves be made level 143/145 as an intermediate weapon between elemental staff and elemental wand (for bishops only, really)

    Note: Since elemental staves and wands come with elemental amplifiers, I doubt any buff to any non-elemental mage weapon could improve the state of non-bishop luk mages. In either proposition, bishop is the class that would usually finds itself in NT/PB to obtain these weapons (ignoring the Free Market), so I don't think this is really too unfair, especially since elemental mages are already much much stronger than bishops in the end-game.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 5
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. asdfjkliang
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    asdfjkliang Selkie Jr.

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    make them look like dunas's wand/staff
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. Vowels
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    Vowels Slimy

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    LUK mage isn't a class it's just how you chose to build your mage, it's like building a thief with high DEX (but worse), both aren't optimal damage wise but that's the cost of mistakes after not doing some research. That's the point of having the option to build our characters everytime we level, It's how RPG's are: there's good builds and bad builds. Mages that have the goal of being strong and planified their characters after reading some guides wouldn't add STR, DEX or LUK.

    LUK mages already have the option to be stronger and that's by buying AP resets, just like any other character with very high secondary stats or irrelevant stats, I don't see the need of balancing the end-game around a bad build when a solution already exists. Also bishops are already very strong and very very close to elemental mages, it's just that no one but two or three individuals bothers to fund them.
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
  4. xadra
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    xadra Capt. Latanica

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    At this point just add a mapletip like "adding luk on mages generally means less damage, dont say we didnt warn you"

    More seriously and on topic, i do dislike how ele wands centralize the game around them so much, just another one of Neckson's trashy strategies to incentivize buying NX. If somehow dragon/NT wands could be buffed into relevance that would be gr8
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. joota
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    joota Mr. Anchor Retired Staff

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    Adding to the points made above, while it might make sense to add a higher tma non-elemental wand to encourage bishops to NT (instead of muling), I don't think it should revolve around luk mages: there's a clear way of making luk mages stronger, by making them non-luk mages.
     
    • Great Work Great Work x 4
  6. OP
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    Nicholas
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    Nicholas Mixed Golem

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    This post was mostly made for fun, I have no expectation that this will go anywhere, and I did expect it to be unpopular. This isn't even really about the damage, as 20 magic attack isn't nearly enough to make luk mages useful, it's really about the fact that mages in Maplestory, have an issue with new end-game content.

    From what I can see, there will be (effectively) no end-game content that will ever come to mages. Imagine playing MapleLegends for years and when NT comes out, you can't enjoy it on your mage because everything is elemental resist and there are no drops for you to be had. It will be the same story with pink bean if timeless weapons and gear is released. The narrative is that we can't buff lukless mages since they are already so strong, and luk mages are so weak and should just reset their luk. These combined lead to a lack of interest in creating new content for end-game mages, because giving anything to luk mages is seen as pointless and buffing lukless mages is out of the question. You could argue that shaolin is an exception to this, but whether you mindlessly grind at shaolin or mindlessly grind at skeles is not exactly "exciting end-game content."

    There is a choice to be made here, and the Balance team should at least acknowledge that they are making a choice here--either luk mages will be buffed in some way or some point, or they will never have value. It is detrimental to not address this issue, along with other issues with character builds (eg axe fighter/ 2h blunt weapon pally). Having these "bad builds" as choices in the game makes MapleLegends a worse game. These gaps in balancing invite players to make incredibly detrimental mistakes-- by no fault of their own-- and then, at the moment, the mindset is to blame those players for not knowing the game meta. I reject this mindset, and I think we should realize that this is a problem of balancing, and it is upon the balancing team to fix these imbalanced builds.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. Oradious
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    Oradious Mr. Anchor

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    Buff LUK mages but buff me only pls

     
  8. OP
    OP
    Nicholas
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    Nicholas Mixed Golem

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    I don't see what this is saying anything other than trying to cast shade on me.
     
  9. Hyoon
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    Hyoon Zakum Retired Staff

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    There are many many guides describing and elaborating efficient builds and such, doing a bit of research especially if you are unfamiliar with the game is something that I would recommend if they look to play this game seriously. The forums are also open to those new players to have questions and get answers from players that have gone through it all.

    The way I see balancing especially when its two different things is that there really isn't a way to balance it for both items to be "in meta" as you say. Take for example Axe and Sword Heroes, given that the weapon has two different and distinct damage calculators, speed and damages one of them will clearly trump the other making it "meta" opposed to the other.

    This is not to limit or scare players that want to do things differently, maplestory in general should be played as you wish to play it. Just like any game, however to play it efficiently will require the "meta" to be used.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. yurain
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    yurain Windraider

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    This is basically having a bug and called it as a feature. When the LUKless wands just released, people were calling it for imbalance immediately. But of course Neoxn don't care, and people will pay money for it and also AP reset. Neoxn get their money, and end of story.

    But here we are at the point where everyone is imbalance, so it is balance.

    Of course, any buff to luk mage is welcomed. All the other class that uses secondary stats in someway and it can be covered mostly with +all stats equip. I would say that, it is due to mage have a lv163 staff that need 165 luk as secondary stat which is hell lot for a secondary stats.

    This is a legit balance issue for the mage, but again the easy way out is "told you to go lukless".
     
  11. cakesogood
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    cakesogood Windraider

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    hey man great suggestion. But i feel that luck mage already is quite viable (in a niche way) because you get a lot of avoid. With 999 avoid you can save some hp pots and move without interuption when selling low lvl bishop leech.
     
  12. OP
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    Nicholas
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    Nicholas Mixed Golem

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    This is false, and this is a bad way to think about balancing. This presumes very strongly that Hero is only capable of 1 end-game function, which is untrue, as Heroes are built to be both good at bossing and grinding--which are two very different avenues when it comes to gear and balancing. The solution to the axe problem is very simple once you acknowledge the fact that grinding heavily favors (slower) harder hits, while bossing favors faster hits for a long period of time.

    This mindset that there is only one end-game function for classes also has negative consequences for many players. It wasn't even in hindsight that the changes made to critical throw this past month were a very bad choice. While the bossing damage of nightlords without SE was increased, it was extremely obvious that the inconsistency in damage it introduced would heavily cripple all assassins from level 30-135, who do not boss for exp, but usually have to grind. Grinding is about high damage with a lower-bound that is as high as possible so that you can consistently kill mobs in fewer hits. The balance pushed basically dropped assassin's lower bound so low that grinding became much more difficult, and the change was met with a lot of dissapproval (and it probably did negatively impact post-event player retention, which has dropped by 30-50%, depending on the time of day).

    Balancing grinding plays out through favoring heavier-hitting, slower items (eg faltizan vs sky ski for drk), and we could easily make modifications to axe fighters to make them viable in this way-- axes are slower than swords, so strike a balance in making axes better for grinding and swords better for bossing.

    Ever class grinds and every class bosses (even some mages), and this approach of balancing between bossing and grinding can be used to fix many currently broken builds, including luk mage--which I have suggested (in another thread) making the mage build that is "better for bossing."
     
  13. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

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    How aren't mages viable in end-game bossing? People hardly test them as they generally make them for the sole purpose of grinding, but they are viable options. With Dunas only having physical damage reflect I'd bet that I/L mages could white him vs. similarly geared counterparts, given their 100% uptime of CL and being able to stay out of range of the dispel, but the immunity to poison does prevent F/P from doing that. In HT with some extreme end game gear and a party composition that revolves around single target DPS a mage could probably achieve a 13-14mil dpm45. In looking at Pink Bean's resistances it's also easy to see mages getting invited, at least initially, as in the old PB videos you can see that there are mages in the fight. It really just depends on how damage reflect and the damage reduction works in their cases, they might be able to pump out good numbers depending on the implementation, so they're a solid maybe just based off of the old standards. The only issue is that people aren't willing and don't build their mages for bossing content.

    Not everyone wants meta damage. People that make axe heroes probably aren't thinking about how viable they are, they just want to swing an axe and be unique. If they enjoy that then more power to them, I don't think they care too much about being weaker as much as they care about just doing what they want and not caring what people think. I've made a lot of bad builds, I started the first dex bucc before I really considered the implications for HT, I just wanted a super dodgy brawler for goofing around with guns. I also made an HP warrior for taking down the Headless Horseman at an extremely low level and for goofing around in LPQ. Not everything needs to be meta as it diminishes the autonomy of players and the choices they make. I appreciate that on MapleLegends I can make screwballs, and that there isn't any hand-holding to stop me. It doesn't stop me, it let's me make the choice for myself for what I want to build.
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
    • Useful Useful x 1
  14. OP
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    Nicholas
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    Nicholas Mixed Golem

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    I wouldn't argue that mages are not viable in any bosses, they're clearly very strong in HT, but I would argue that they usually have nothing to contribute and nothing to gain from most bosses (eg, probably every other NT boss, bosses that aren't HT or zak arms). Many players pursue NT content for weapon crafting, and there is effectively no incentive besides chair collecting for mages (the exp is trash for mages). I have doubts about the efficacy of mages in pinkbean, it depends on the implementation as you mentioned. Nonetheless, the only thing mages would gain here is a monetary compensation (with some exp). I don't think we should ignore the fact that some of the most enticing and motivating content people want from future updates is newer, better gear, and it is an objective fact that every class stands to benefit from this except for mage.

    Fixing overtly broken builds does not affect player choice, this is clear and you cannot argue that builds with entire equip sets and skill builds are meant to be broken or that fixing them inhibits player choice, so this first sentence says nothing true or at least nothing relevant (I am clearly not trying to make everything meta--only the things that are clearly intended as options).

    Just to demonstrate my point in replying to most responses, please consider the following argument for why paladins should not have been buffed years ago, and should still be a trash class that only 1 or 2 players play:

    Not everyone wants meta damage. People that make paladins probably aren't thinking about how viable they are, they just want to swing an axe and be unique. If they enjoy that then more power to them, I don't think they care too much about being weaker as much as they care about just doing what they want and not caring what people think. Not everything needs to be meta as it diminishes the autonomy of players and the choices they make. I appreciate that on MapleLegends I can make screwballs, and that there isn't any hand-holding to stop me. It doesn't stop me, it let's me make the choice for myself for what I want to build.

    Moreover, we can now consider the reason we shouldn't buff buccs or MMS any further:

    Not everyone wants meta damage. People that make buccs and marksmen probably aren't thinking about how viable they are, they just want to transform and be useful to the party. If they enjoy that then more power to them, I don't think they care too much about being weaker as much as they care about just doing what they want and not caring what people think. Not everything needs to be meta as it diminishes the autonomy of players and the choices they make. I appreciate that on MapleLegends I can make screwballs, and that there isn't any hand-holding to stop me. It doesn't stop me, it let's me make the choice for myself for what I want to build...
     
  15. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

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    It is in fact possible to believe that every class should be viable while also believing that class builds should be based on personal preference.

    Not only that, but classes are permanent while builds can be much more fluid, so balancing needs to be done to classes as they are permanent fixtures in the game. If a person wants to make a luk mage or axe hero that's cool, they can do that. But if one day they change their mind and decide to pursue damage, well they're able to vote for a while in order to shift their AP or SP around.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    THECHUMP!

    @OP - I agree that it would be cool to have a bit more multi-dimensional purpose for LUK utilization. However, I think trying to push for LUK playing into the overall damage of mages is a bad idea. Perhaps LUK can factor into the mage's defense formula instead?
     
  17. joota
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    joota Mr. Anchor Retired Staff

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    By the way, I'd like to point out a very underrated item from NT content specifically useful for bishops:
    https://maplelegends.com/lib/equip?id=01372048
    upload_2020-7-9_20-45-15.png
    While the TMA on this wand is a lot lower than Elemental wands, it gives up to 260 extra hp which I'm sure a lot of bishops would prefer in bosses like HT if they're not as focused on dealing damage (and more want to survive).
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  18. MrPresident
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    MrPresident Capt. Latanica

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    Lukless mages win again OnionF4https://maplelegends.com/lib/equip?id=1382064
     
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  19. Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    People make them not thinking about it, but get bummed out once they realize how weak they are. Putting in the same amount of effort as other people for levels, getting better gear, but ultimately being locked into a pre-determined meta which is that they are one of the weakest classes (this is talking OG maple, if we didn't have any balance changes). We don't try to shift the meta, we just try to make the game enjoyable and have a similar pay off. Sometimes it takes a few attempts to get it right :p
     
  20. Daydreamer
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    Daydreamer Headless Horseman

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    The point of an RPG is having multiple viable builds that perform well in different situations and with different playstyles, not having 1 viable build that's essentially "solved" by taking the easiest and most uninteresting stat distribution possible. People like you make me think that Neckson was right to just make stats auto-assign, since it seems so many MapleStory players specifically don't understand the point of an RPG and would prefer every character to virtually play itself. Not every job, build, or character should be equally strong, but if a specific job or build is significantly weaker to the point where it's not even remotely viable, that's a bug and should be treated as such. The same thing goes for people suggesting LUK requirements be dropped, or the idiotic comments suggesting LUK mages should AP reset to LUKless. It's akin to suggesting underplayed/underpowered classes should reroll as Bishops.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Disagree Disagree x 1

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