How long are you allowed to hold an HT channel?

I find it hard to conduct a reasonability test when there are glaring double standards with the way things are decided/enforced. Holding an HT channel for an undetermined amount of time while you are gearing up to run vs. holding an ulu2 map for an undetermined amount of time while you are gearing up to leech. There is virtuallly no difference between those two cases, and I have even known people to hold an ulu or shaolin map on a mule WHILE doing ht. We're going to push the limits of what we can do, between optimizing stats (washing, avoid meta), optimizing map efficiency (selling leech on 3 different maps with 3 different characters), bossing (multiclient inside a boss, or even shared multiclient sharing our precious mules). Its what Legenders do. There isnt a general sense of ill-intent with our actions; even with all this drama being thrust forward, I still think we have a good playerbase.

That said, pushing boundaries will break our toys sooner rather than later, and many of these issues have been recurring throughout the server's lifespan. Between camping all the anego channels with 9 characters or w/e in the past, selling/renting/hoarding popular maps, to sniping lpq->zak->ht channels. It's all the same thing that has just evolved with the average level of the playerbase. We need a ruleset that can at least not have immediate, glaring holes that wont break day 1 because being toxic assholes is just what we do best.

 

Can we enter the cave with 1 char, summon the prehead, and press heavens hammer every 10 seconds to hold an HT map for 2 hours then?

 

To be a bit nitpicky here, what if we were to:

1). summon the head, but we arent gonna fight it yet, so we just hit it every 5 mins. This follows the mapowner rules as written and rules as intended. Hitting a boss gives mapowner. Even better obscurity, lets have an nl/shad/bucc steal aggro, and enter ds/barrel. Now it wont even attack, but we arent actually fighting it so now is this aggro abuse?

2. We'll not summon head, instead open an old halloween summon sac and kill thos monsters instead. Mapowner obtained, albeit not very cost-effective/sustainable.

I'd actually argue that these issues are not "new", but rather have been ever-present and harder to fix because of age/average level of the server. The player base just was not high enough level or with a large enough mule army to "show" the flaws in the system and abuse them to the level they are today. I'm not trying to undermine the work of the staff by any means (I personally think its a losing battle that you're doing your best to fix), we're just an impossible bunch to please, but the signs have been there for this eventuality.

https://forum.maplelegends.com/index.php?threads/discussion-for-lady-boss-anego.24605/

 

The only thing about the situation that irks me is the fact that GMs started to interfere before players were informed about the new policy. The default position of a GM should be not to interfere with gameplay at all, only in a couple of specific well established situations should any action be taken. If you want to set some official rules against holding/sniping maps then fine so be it. But banning map holders without warning and dcing teams out of maps before any of those rules are established is ridiculous, and frankly reeks of rogue GMs going on a power trip.

 

Can we just add more channels? With the influx of covid players, getting a map for most purposes is borderline impossible now!!!

 

I would generally agree with most of what was said except for this bit. This basically eliminates the opportunity for any group to schedule a run any time after 12:00 a.m. ST on presumably crowded days/weekends, as they would lose out to other groups that are trying to run right at reset time. This boils down to a matter of opinion, but I really don't think it should be considered griefing to hold a map in order to secure your run at the time you planned on running. I find the argument of having nobody else in cave as an indicator of griefing to be a weak one, as it really isn't difficult to get your entire party to sign onto their accounts within a minute of each other and be ready to go by the next.

Lets exemplify a scenario in which the community adopts your rules of non-griefing by abstaining to hold a channel without immediate intent to use.

Group A has been waiting in cave since 11:50 p.m. ST, but has delayed their run time to 12:30 a.m. ST because some of their party members are finishing up dinner, caught in traffic, etc. Group B shows up at 12:20 a.m. ready to go, so Group A is now forced to give up their channel to Group B. Group A concedes because they are law-abiding Maplers, but they are now left with no other channel to run, as 7 other groups had already claimed their channels. Does this not, then, encourage the practice of sniping channels?

Revisiting Alyosha's anecdote in relation to the current situation, I think a more appropriate response from the teacher would have been to better assess why the second student acted out in rebellion. What elicited this student's behavior? Were there perhaps unofficial rules of the playground creating a system of unfairness in which excluded not just this one student but also many others? I would be disappointed if the teacher simply sided with the popular consensus while showing little concern for the underlying issues.

 

Enabling multi-clienting was a wrong move.

 

I've done some reflecting and I'd like to apologize for how crude the other messages by me were. I'll stand by the content of the messages but recognize that it was said in an aggravating way, detracting from the rest of the discussion and simply pushing for further toxicity. I don't believe I did right by others, but I choose to remain adamant about seeking that and basing my own actions off of it, but that involves recognizing my own toxicity and reconciling it.

For my tone and my own toxicity I am sorry, and I'll wish the best for you, regardless of what's been said.

 

Corona effect pog.

 

I ve came to this thread too late. and i might be really loosy about this.

In my thought, and im really impressed on how the game evolved since the quarentines started, it really changed our lives real life but that doenst matter here at all. it matters is indeed on how our gaming experience changed so drastically, we got new rules, new changes ingame, drastical changes on the market, even our own way to see and treat the things meanwhile we play too many changes are bounded on the high player base spike we have now. but this is not important at all i just wanted to say it.

Coming back to this ht issue i have to say that in my thought. GM should not intervene on the case if the ppl is guarding a map or simple tell ppl to leave the ht map as soon after its dead because its really really wrong and that is not how supposed to be. guarding a map its not griefing and you arent sabotaging others gameplay. GM should ONLY intervene if a direct sabotage its happening to an ht run which its accounted to griefing. Why i say this? people its on their right to hold the channel if they want. as i might say the map belongs to the ones who are there first. and thats how its supposed by the common sense. and they can do everything they want if they have the power of the sign up. the map doesnt have a mapowner basic like vowels say. so there is not a logical explanation why some1 can report a gm to get a map cause some1 its just +10 mins there. i know you guys say "Oh yes they are there 20 mins without starting the run, so you re saying its fair do that" IM not saying its fair but they in the end are there first so they have the right of doing that. those maps cant belong to anyone so you can't disclaim it by any gm. and i sorta see that like a misusing of the power of staff. you better get a map by your own means if you want ht run.

Also I simply dont understand what's the drama with "Sniping" the channels going on. this is a game. sniping its not a word to be use here. you re just getting a channel by your own means. I know its frustrating for many of you but in the end, if you lose the map because anything on some1 simple beat it. you lost it. like any map that you can find ingame. you gotta to admit that you sniped the map of some1 meanwhile was leeching or you got sniped by some1 and the same concept its applied here. I dont see why ppl makes a drama about a sniped channel and im honestly really sick because thats a lack of maturity. why making yourself enemies on something that simply cant belong to you at all? if you got sniped by a friend just say. "Ok you snipe me i pass it, when I snipe you next time, no hard feelings ok?". before you think about guild, alliances or "Respect". think that you re at first individual players and you mean to play the game that is meant to be this way and dont lose your mind by something that is very trivial because believe me, its bad for your mental health and in the end you look really bad.

So if you get sniped BEAT IT once for all and get another map, dont be a crybaby and use the smegas to attack the other person who did the thing that was supposed to happen. dont discern the other ppl reputation on smegas because you ruin your own image as a player instead of the other you mean to harm being a dramatic queen. because in the end if that one that was your guildie/alliance mate stole your map/ht channel ANYONE IN THE SERVER WOULD DO THE SAME ANYWAYS AND YOU WILL STILL LOSE IT. you dont win anything doing grief. im looking at everyone who are making smegas dramas all these days about this petty pest: BEAT IT get it? protect your map or gtfo and get another map.

So to conclude there are bad movements of staff and bad behaviors on the players than cant accept a loss thats all i see here. if the game meant to be global-like there only would be 1 HT channel for everyone and the thing would be really worst than this. the situation its very easy to overcome. but thats how to be. learn to mantain your channels on your hands or simply wait.

Dont make misuse of your power legends staff. there are things here you cant do. you cant make everyone happy. there are points you cant intervene. for me you re doing this wrong.

 

heyy can just add more ccs or make it so that horntail is not channel bound. People don't have all day to wait for a squad to complete it in order to run it especially when they all coordinated their schedules to run at a certain time.

 

3. The problem with this is how you frame the question to a reasonable person. If you ask a reasonable person "is it okay for a person to hoard this thing" vs "is it okay for a person to reserve this thing" you will get 2 very different answers. On top of that the reasonable person might say it's okay to reserve but only for 30 minutes, 1 hour, 3 hours, etc. What if the person holding an HT channel plans to sell it like leech maps sometimes are? Is it unreasonable for somebody to earn mesos from selling a scarce resource? I think it'd help if staff define what their reasonableness test includes and how they think a reasonable person would respond.

4. Personally none of this thread has been clarifying. It still baffles me how throughout the entire game you are encouraged to reserve a map (for hours if you really wanted) but in HT it's against the law? Extend the reasonableness test to leech & area boss maps and I think the reasonable person would share similar thoughts from holding an HT channel.

 

Spoiler

I'm not 100% sure what's the point you're trying to make here, but what I understand from this is that: you don't think it's considered griefing when a player signs up, gets inside and idle to reserve a channel for a run much later.

Here's an analogy.

You have a dinner with friends at a restaurant at 7pm. You show up at the restaurant 10 minutes earlier, but your group has yet to arrive. The restaurant staff notifies you that you'll only be seated when everyone is present. While waiting, several other groups were allowed in and started ordering. Unfortunately, the restaurant staff comes up to you (& maybe some friends?) and tells you there are no more empty tables. At this point, you can 1) wait outside the restaurant until there's an empty table, or 2) dine elsewhere.

You'll probably argue that you would have made reservations at the restaurant. Fine.

Say your reservation is a 7pm. If you've ever made a reservation at a restaurant, they usually have a grace period of maybe 10-15 mins (depending on restaurant?). That's to say at 7pm, when your entire group is present, you'll have a table waiting for you. If you (if you're eating alone or whatever) or your group is not present, you will lose your reserved table once it's past the grace period. That table is now FFA and available for walk-in customers. At this point, you've lost your reservation and will be considered a walk-in customer along with your group i.e. that table is FFA, first come first serve.

Also, I'm a bit confused with your idea of a reservation. Typically when you make a reservation, like for a table at a restaurant, you don't show up 2 hours before your reservation timing and sit at a table for 2 hours before your group arrives. That 2 hours of you sitting at a table, not eating or ordering could have very well been used to service another group. I believe, that would be very commonly known at hogging and not reserving.

Point here is, there isn't an agreed upon "grace period" for holding in a HT channel. This is what jesscapades is asking about. Most replies here are not even addressing it (including mine, I guess). I *think* what Nise is trying to say is that it's difficult to just decide on X number of minutes grace period and call it a day. There are bound to be players out there challenging that, for example:

hence the need to understand the context and deal with it on a case-by-case basis. If a squad is having difficulties, and is unable to start a run due to members being left outside and need time to work things out, I wouldn't think that it is griefing and shouldn't be punished.

If a player is intentionally entering and idling without summoning i.e. hogging a channel without the intention to kill HT, that is obstructing gameplay for other player i.e. griefing and warrants a punishment.

We can slap a 5 mins timer at prehead 1, but that means if a GM is strictly following ToS and the squad in OP's situation 2 takes longer than 5 minutes they'll be booted out regardless of their intent.

Hope this clarifies a bit and Nise if I'm interpreting your words wrongly, please clarify.

 

There is a major difference between a restaurant reservation and HT reservation though. In a restaurant you are guaranteed that table at your reserved time as long as your party is present. That right doesn't exist in HT. If it did exist then I completely agree with you and would even say this thread would likely not have been made because everybody could start HT at their reserved times. My term of reservation is more like standing in line during a tech release. Is it wrong for somebody to stand outside for hours (afk in HT map) while waiting for a new iPhone release (their run to start) to guarantee they receive what they are waiting for (HT channel)? Additionally you could even be standing in line to just sell the spot to somebody else.

Edit: In the tech scenario I think most places have implemented a maximum quantity you can purchase so the first person doesn't buy everything. I would equate that to 1 HT party can hold 1 HT channel. For example, if you're already running in channel 6 your party can't also use mules to hold channel 7 and your party can't use mules to hold more than 1 channel before the run starts. Beyond that I'm not sure what reasonable limitations can be put in place.

 

Holding a map by entering the HT cave and not spawning is not much different than holding up the sign ups at the entrance. The only difference is that one is susceptible to being sniped by others every 5 minutes. The end-goal is essentially the same - to preserve the channel for your group as you were probably there waiting before anybody else.

This discussion constantly moves back to the idea of people griefing for the sake of being annoying, but can anybody attest to seeing this actually happening? I haven't heard of anybody holding a map just to stop others from running. It has always been done as a way to save a map for themselves with the intent to secure a run. I don't see how holding a map on a different channel while you're about to leave your run is considered griefing, especially when it is evident that people are camping your channel, waiting to snipe it. In this case, isn't this person doing the exact same thing as those waiting to snipe? Everybody is operating under the pretense of scarcity and insecurity, yet one gets preferential treatment while the other is considered griefing. The double standard is glaring.

Lets pin another analogy to this situation:
You're at the grocery store with 4 friends. There are 6 check out lines, all with varying wait times and lengths. You decide to split up to better your chances at securing a faster check out. People start queuing behind you and your other friends. Once one of your friends reaches the front of the line, all 4 friends congregate to that faster line. Is this considered unfair behavior? Is this considered griefing others?

 

I agree. There's no way to guarantee a free channel when you show up for your scheduled run hence I said I wasn't sure what you meant by "reserve". Refer to the firs part of my analogy.

Spoiler

Of course, there are always exception like people not done eating and you gotta wait a bit etc etc but that's not important here. Like I said, there's still a grace period. You won't have a table waiting for you 1 hour (arbituary period of time) past your reservation if your party is not ready. The table would be made available for someone else who is present and ready to be seated. You arrive late or for whatever reason isn't ready to be seated and it took you 1 hour (again, for the sake of this discussion) to be finally ready. If a table is available, doesn't matter, you still get to eat. If a table isn't available, do you go up to the staff and demand a group of diners to leave just so you can have the table you "reserved".

If this analogy is too confusing for you, this is referring to "sniping" i.e. you were at the channel first but took ages and/or multiple sign ups and/or you're dragging time because your squad isn't ready and then another squad that's ready starts sign ups and "snipe" your channel.

I agree that there's no way to reserve a HT channel. I only mentioned "reservation" because you mentioned it and I wasn't sure what you meant. I was basing my reply on my understanding of the word "reservation".

Spoiler

as in no. 5 on the list?

Wouldn't that just be queuing, rather than making a "reservation"? I have no issues with simply waiting for a map/channel to be available. However afking in HT is not the same as waiting outside for a channel to be available. As per my analogy, that would be occupying a table and not eating (not utilizing it) just to secure a table for your group if and when they arrive. Again, that's hogging and that's why restaurants only seat you when your group is present - so that someone else could be utilizing the table (channel) that you are hogging.

I personally am against selling maps and in this case selling channels. AFAIK, it's not against ToS to sell a spot (as in like FM spots?) or map but I can see how in some cases it may be griefing.

I agree. If it's done intentionally to hog a channel, whether at sign ups or in cave, then it's griefing.

As it is intended to be. The channel is FFA to start sign ups.

Again it's FFA. Being there first doesn't mean anything. You can be in cave 24/7 and not be running anytime soon. Does that mean you own the channel until you decide to leave cave? :think: I'm so confused as to why people think they are entitled to the channel. Please explain why it's not FFA.