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Pink Bean is bad

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Alyosha, Jan 14, 2022.

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  1. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Headless Horseman Retired Staff

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    You can justify PB being bad by many metrics, at least compared to where it was pre-patch.

    Also have a couple of cool videos if you want to see for yourself, one being Pasta getting deleted by using old tactics(give us your best roasts, we deserve them) and another of PB being a joke who is shoved into the left wall and left helpless to the Night Lord onslaught. I won't post them publicly in a forum post because of Neckson lawyers but I'll link it in a DM if you ask and look legitimate.

    Here's a list of all of the things that I think make PB bad:

    It has a much lower skill cap - Buccaneers, Corsairs, Bishops, and DKs have lost all nuance in play and have been relegated to the task of simply hitting the bean, regardless of how ineffective they are at such tasks(At least Buccs offer decent DPM, the other 3 are pretty much trash now that either shouldn't be brought or muled for their benefits)

    It's now more HP washing intensive - No longer will you be able to skirt by with less than 13k HP and playing on the left of the Bean, you're now forced to play on the right side and forced to tank all of the highest damage hits.

    It's a much buggier fight - It doesn't matter what is being attacked, when 15+ people are attacking some target it seems to freeze it up. It's the case for statues but it seems to be less of a case for the Bean. He has his own bugs, like just rapidly rubberbanding back and forth the instant somebody uses Rush or Corkscrew. With enough Rush you can slingshot him right into your nice soft ranged underbelly. He also just stops DRing at points, long enough to @ GM like in the good old days, only it seems to break more often if the last couple runs are any indication.

    It's now much easier to mule - You'd expect that dispel hitting the corners would actually make it more difficult to bring in loads of bishop mules, but that isn't really the case. Currently, everyone just focuses down one statue, so if Right Man DPs it just doesn't matter that much, as nothing else is attacking. You have a solid few seconds to click to your other client and press Magic Guard, along with the statue animation if you can be bothered to pay attention. In the future more mules are planned to be brought, with the only limit being the number of signs you can have, with less useful mules being kicked for more useful ones in smaller runs.

    It's boring - like this was the most boring run I've been on. Statues are just a slog to slowly get through and the Bean itself is probably solved. It's solved now and is purely a mechanical fight, shove it to the left of the screen and wail away at him. Eventually he dies, it's a Dunas with tons more HP and some confusion.

    It promotes NLstory - You can justifiably say that every other class was hurt more than NLs were in the changes. If you decrease NL performance by 10% and decrease every other classes' performance by 20% then Night Lords are even more the clear winner of which class to play. The changes hurt them less which in turn only promotes them even more in a game that already centers around them.

    I'm sure there are more reasons as well, but these are the ones that I've been seeing thrown around. Thought it'd be best to put them all in one spot and encourage further discussion.

    Honestly the only advice I can really give to fixing PB is to actually involve groups in testing. There is no way to extensively test the Bean with the current roster of staff, it requires stress testing of 20 people wailing and a lot of experience with the boss to even make guesses as to the implications of any change. Nobody really understood just how wonky this boss is this patch until after it was run a few times.
     
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  2. mjk
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    mjk Slime

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    I'm curious what other runners think about reverting some (or all) of bean to its pre-patch state
     
  3. Vystical
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    Vystical King Slime

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    AlyoshaAlyosha I was literally going to make this exact post today but you beat me to the punch. Thanks

    I would like the reversion of the aggro change, it removes the only aspect of Pinkbean I found fun which was being able to demonstrate skill in managing and repositioning the Pinkbean. Now body stage is just a DPS check and NL story as Alyosha mentioned.

    I like the changes to Statues to allow for more cleave to join. The changes in resistance are cool for including more Archmages (I think it should be Holy Resistance and not just 100% Holy Immunity for minibeans imo) so that Bishops can still have some nuance in the fight.

    BUT the aggro changes just make every other class except NL, Pali's and their supporting SE's, second-class citizens.
    While I AM ALLOWED to take more cleave because of the statue changes, because of the new changes to Body stage, I need even more single target DPS to make up for the lost damage from it hitting the squad.
    This is not the class diversity that someone intended to create.

    It was really cool seeing people who truly mastered their class skillfully employ tactics that let them catch up to NL attackers, like BM's point-blank Hurricane, Drks Zerking, Sair Zerking and skilled buccaneers controlling the Pinkbean and enabling the rest of the squad to do their best.
    NL will always be top tier, but at least give options for other classes to minimize the gap with skilled play...

    Please let players enjoy one of the few bosses that actually require skilled play by reverting the aggro changes.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  4. KobeBean8
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    KobeBean8 Orange Mushroom

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    If the intention was to make PB more challenging, all they had to do was reduce the timer
     
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  5. iccqqq
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    iccqqq Master Chronos

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    nerf nl
     
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  6. Kimberly
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    Kimberly Administrator Staff Member Administrator Game Moderator

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    We've already mentioned it a few times, but the rubberbanding is a bug, and it's not something we can likely fix or look into without a patch because I believe the rush changes were done with client edits. Anyway, aggro is currently what I would call our (our being devs + staff) final boss, because it seems it never, NEVER wants to do how we code it to do. Mobs are not supposed to freeze, PB is not supposed to randomly not cast things, those are bugs. Yes, we did group testings behind the scene, but not with 20+ people since the way our test server is set up it's unrealistic to have that amount of people since it's currently only for staff.

    We have since our base emulator refactored a lot, which includes the aggro code, but it seems there's something unknown still that is likely artifacted by shitty base code that is still making mobs freeze or other issues to occur, but we don't know what exactly. The biggest annoyance with aggro and mob controller is that its semi client sided, which also adds to annoying bugs if someone lags for example.
     
    • Informative Informative x 3
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  7. Selquin
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    Selquin Wolfspider

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  8. fartsy
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    fartsy Mr. Anchor

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    banish to login screen
     
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  9. Edann
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    Edann Stone Golem Retired Staff

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    Server relies on mob positions to be dictated by aggro holding clients.
    That's the ENTIRE POINT of rush skills / kb threshold to force re-aggro and the sole reason they work. It's not something only discoverable by 20-group testing something - it's common knowledge.

    Not only PB is wonky, the entire game broke from this change.

    I would recommend looking into boss skill prioritization instead.
     
    • Informative Informative x 3
  10. Kimberly
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    Kimberly Administrator Staff Member Administrator Game Moderator

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    And what happened before this patch? Oh right, bosses non-stop freezing randomly. We've been experimenting with changes because we want find out WHY bosses are freezing. We are already aware why the rubberbanding is happening, and that it's a bug.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  11. Edann
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    Edann Stone Golem Retired Staff

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    I'm pretty sure it was only really PB mainbody not DRing or DRing late and only statues actually freezing? I guess in some rare occasions Dunas would behave similarly (while still casting), or the CWK pirate boss. Not sure it was anything beyond these examples but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

    I'm glad this is still being looked into and I know how difficult this can be, however I'm throwing this feedback out because I believe these should be thoroughly tested prior to implementation as this isn't the first time a change like this achieves the absolute opposite desired effect.
     
  12. Kimberly
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    Kimberly Administrator Staff Member Administrator Game Moderator

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    CWKPQ bosses could also freeze, yeah. The issue is that not many bosses are non-static making the problem less visible.

    Read my first reply where I said exactly this was been tested. Come on Edannn you were in staff and KNOW we have a hard time with this. Why do every "Retired staff" suddenly have to act differently after they left the staff to stay on the good side of the community. I've been noticing this constantly over time. You know we've been troubling with the aggro for quite a while, so don't pretend now here we were not testing the aggro issues behind the scene or constant discussing what could be wrong with it.

    Also, weapon cancel/magic cancel was addressed as well which I am fairly sure was actually improved based on feedback we got (the skill priority you mention).
     
  13. Selquin
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    Selquin Wolfspider

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    Perhaps its due to some selection bias. The people who leave staff tend to do so due to some dissatisfaction with its operation, and so when they leave staff and have more freedom to critique its operation more freely those complaints often resurface.

    I don't know the details about staff's inner operations, but when something obvious like the timeless/reverse pirate weapon bug, which probably takes 5min to confirm and a couple more to fix, remains broken, you have to wonder how rigorous staff testing really is.
     
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  14. MrPresident
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    MrPresident Capt. Latanica

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  15. Edann
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    Edann Stone Golem Retired Staff

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    KimberlyKimberly I don't think my views of staff is much changed since leaving. I know how spaghetti-coded the game is, and so I still think you and everyone else at the team are incredibly passionate and dedicated individuals, and I have a ton of respect for you guys. It's probably not coming off too clearly in text, but it's my honest feelings.

    It is however exactly the reason why I still take time to give the criticism I have and I think is relevant - I really do trust you guys can make it right, and I'm even going to guess other retired staff bitterness at least partially stems from this sentiment as well (at least to a degree).

    SelquinSelquin really hit the nail on the head with their reply.
     
  16. -Toon
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    -Toon Pac Pinky

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    I don’t know how difficult it would be to turn test server feasible for a small niche of regular players, but, looking from the outside, i believe that would be a really good addition to the server.

    Regarding MM on new PB, we are now locked to snowshoes because of traction KB counter and low jump to keep repositioning while jump attacking after KB. It’s underwhelming knowing that, if i get high attack Facestompers, i won’t be able to wear them there. Same goes for most classes, except flash jump NLs and iframe Buccs. If you plan to maintain right side pb meta, i highly recommend the implementation of No slip scrolls. Without them, most shoes are going to be obsolete.

    https://forum.maplelegends.com/inde...-for-spikes-on-shoes-10-no-slip-scroll.44090/
     
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  17. -ovv
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    -ovv Skelegon

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    If there's any content that could make use of an advisory board before making any changes, it's Pink Bean. I mean - is there anybody on staff that even runs Pink Bean? It's not like a sneak peek at the changes would really give people much of an insider's advantage, and it's becoming more apparent that the players themselves are being used as the play testers of these changes indeterminate of whether they are good changes or not.

    I'm guessing that staff/BT didn't implement these changes knowing that it would upset the players or make Pink Bean more boring than it already is, but I'm willing to bet there are players out there that could have foreseen it just based on patch notes and offered better suggestions.
     
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  18. Soblet
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    Soblet Headless Horseman

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    Other than PB (and aggro in general) issues being fixed this scroll would make a nice addition to the game imo.
     
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  19. Kimberly
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    Kimberly Administrator Staff Member Administrator Game Moderator

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    And once again giving feedback now on how PB works when <it's currently bugged> is not valid feedback. Of course, it's boring now, it's not doing what its supposed to do! Sliding is not supposed to happen, DR randomly not working is not supposed to happen, statues freezing is not supposed to happen.

    We are already looking into it *again* but we still got no major clues why those issues happen (besides sliding) but like i mentioned reverting the sliding will just bring back the freezing, so we have to look and investigate (again) why the freezing (and PB not using skills randomly) happens.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  20. Awrien
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    Awrien Horny Mushroom

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    I'm actually a little surprised to hear you go so far as to call it non-stop freezing randomly. I think as players, it's hard to really know what constitutes as intended boss behaviour or not. Not knowing how it's coded, we aren't sure how bosses really choose to prioritize what skills they cast. The most obvious example recently has been PB casting DR. If DR is off cooldown, but it just so happens through sheer statistical luck to decide to cast some other skills for a while, when does it turn from intended behaviour into possibly bugged behaviour? I also want to note that after the entire 30-man PB squad got banned, it has become common practice to @gm at even the slightest doubt, just to air on the side of caution. I imagine that what we experience as players, and what the staff sees from what gets reported through @gm is very different.

    Still, I know there have been actual instances of straight up freezing bosses. From what I experienced, those were actually fairly rare cases. And yes, I'm sure it's annoying that it happens even at all, and it would be great to be able to fix that. I do admire how much work you've all put into having tried to fix it all this time. But a part of wonders if it's worth trying to fix this seemingly unsolvable problem, when from our perspective it seems like it just causes additional problems. I know there are hosts who would still bring me, but I straight up don't feel comfortable joining PB on my sair knowing I won't be pulling my own weight. I think what frustrates a lot of the community is that we don't really know what the plan is. Are there any plans to revert the aggro changes for now? Do I keep investing into any character that isn't an NL, when it feels like any given aggro change could make it unplayable for a large chunk of time?

    Again, I'm not saying the decisions the staff has made were necessarily wrong, and I'm not putting anyone at fault. It just feels like players simply go from adapting to one set of janky mechanics to a different set of janky mechanics. And it may just be because we've gotten used to it, but the previous set of janky mechanics didn't really seem too terrible of an issue, at least to me.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
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