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Information September 2023 Balance Changes [Explained]

Discussion in 'Update Notes' started by Nise, Sep 11, 2023.

  1. Esmo
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    Esmo Pac Pinky

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    12:32 AM
    Esmo
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    UpperLeveL
    maybe stop nerfing the NL class? I would play again if the crit nerf will be reverted to 300% damage and 25%crit chance , what am I seeing now is a train nerf in every patch for the NL , how you guys expect us nl players to keep playing if u nerf us every single patch
     
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  2. Jafel
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    Jafel Capt. Latanica

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    11:32 PM
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    Damn, I think you just gave staff more reason to nerf NL.
     
  3. Ferluci
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    Ferluci Zakum Retired Staff

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    Ferluci
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    please just stay away noone even likes you lol
     
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  4. Subterlabor
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    Subterlabor Headless Horseman

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    Yet you still creep the forums. You're like a disgruntled ex. Sad
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  5. Esmo
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    Esmo Pac Pinky

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    arent u you suppose to take care of your toddler instead of rotting in this forum?
     
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  6. Esmo
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    Esmo Pac Pinky

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    1 nerf??? ive been following the recent balance changes from time to time and all i see is nl nerfs and not a single buff , look i dont really care anymore because im not planing to come back but there's many people who invested their time and mesos into their nls and now its all gone its demotivate people to play NL
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. Subterlabor
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    Subterlabor Headless Horseman

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    Clearly you care enough to stick around and complain about it :eek:
     
  8. fartsy
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    fartsy Zakum

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    I’m making a nl and this change looks just fine
     
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  9. Ferluci
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    Ferluci Zakum Retired Staff

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    I have 2 now lol
     
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  10. Esmo
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    Esmo Pac Pinky

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    i mean i washed my nl to 30k hp clean , bought 10 sets of mtks , bought some nice gear and now it got nerfed for 4-5 patches in a row ofcourse i will complain about it , believe me i would love to play my character but look every single time i come back to the forums and check out the balance changes all i see is another NL nerfs
     
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  11. Esmo
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    Esmo Pac Pinky

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    congrats
     
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  12. Jafel
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    Jafel Capt. Latanica

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    Ferluci? More like Fertility. Should rename
     
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  13. Rainemard
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    Rainemard Balance Team Staff Member Balance Team

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    11:32 PM
    Rainemard
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    TOOBASED

    Every skill has a bunch of functions to consider, some even require certain character builds to make them more even more efficient (like roar, 30k mp mages, etc.). The function this skill in particular excelled at got a nerf, but not to the point of uselessness. This change doesn't mean you can't Roar anymore for all purposes, including farming. It's just a little less efficient at the drop rate part. You still get items, equips, gach tickets, nx, all of the good stuff. Just not at the insane rate it had (a 15 target skill with no cooldown, huge range and no long aftercast like mage ults). For reference, this skill having the same droprate as, as an example, Brandish, Boomerang Step, Chain Lightning or Dragon Fury makes it a gigantic outlier in items/hour. I understand that the lower damage aspect of this skill held it back somewhat, but considering the multi-DK aspect of it as well, it had to be changed.

    I get where you're coming from, ideally nothing would ever see a nerf, and it's never fun to see your job receive one. That being said, as stated above, it lost some efficiency. It still kills stuff just as fast in 3rd job, you can still get one of the better exp/hrs across all job (bar Meso Exploding, which loses you money, and F/P misting) and you will still receive drops to sustain the potion cost. You might make less, but that's only fair when looking at how much faster it is than other 3rd jobs (again, bar Meso Exploding and F/P misting).

    I personally feel like regarding the transparency it'd be a good idea to put these type of things under the "Server Skill Changes" part, what's your opinion on this? Do you have other suggestions to make it more transparent or more intuitive?

    I think this is a really good take from an experienced 3rd jobber. You can say what you want about osslockers, but if anyone knows 3rd job and what they can do, it's them.

    That's what I like to compare it to as well in 3rd job. Money for way more EPH is a good trade in almost all cases when starting out. It's why people buy leech after all.

    A large problem in revealing that type of information is that people will optimize the hell out of it once we do. I'd personally like to be as transparent as possible, but I see the danger in doing that too. That's why the choice has been to reveal this information in the first place, to show "Hey, this skill is mildly less efficient in this particular goal", without revealing every single calculation on the backside of it.

    While you don't personally care about that type of balance, it doesn't make it any less important. The moment we stop caring about the economic state of the server and just buff everything to the point of printing billions per hour, it'll be impossible for new players to obtain anything substantial (to name only one of the myriad of problems that would cause).

    Calling names because you don't agree with something? Nothing of value was lost :^)
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2023
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  14. Sloppy
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    Sloppy Horny Mushroom

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    Class balancing is important so I personally agree with boosts and nerfs I just don't necessarily agree with all of the ones this server does(Which is all a matter of opinion and nothing will satisfy everyone). It seems like a large amount of issues this server has are directly related to multi clienting and instead of addressing that issue, you guys address after effects of it. Every class is going to have some sort of pros and cons and at different class levels. The damage on roar is not the same as a mages ultimate, and skills should not be changed based off of multi-dk abuse imo. Should Mist be nerfed due to how fast it makes F/Ps be able to level and next to no cost? IMO I think my main point is I think there are bigger issues that should be addressed like leech and rampant mules for literally everything. End of the day it is what it is and the class isn't broken by this, it's just very inconvenient to the class and I personally don't like farming nerfs in general unless there is legitimate abuse(Which is debatable at what that is).

    All things considered I think this server does a good job with their changes.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2023
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  15. icymcspicy
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    icymcspicy Slime

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    Correct me if I'm wrong but did multi mage not generate an inordinate amount of raw meso and npc-able equips whereas multi-dk are meso -ve or neutral but generate an inordinate amount of gach and NX?

    Multi mage has been nerfed and almost does not exist in the form it originally was in but the effects are still apparent in the economy. Looking at the cost of CS/WS for example. Items generally cost more for new players joining the server now than before.

    I don't have the data to back this up but theoretically does multi dk not solve this problem by introducing more items into the economy, lowering prices?
    If we really wanted stuff to be cheaper should we not curb raw meso generation (which has been done somewhat) and encourage more item generation? The "billions" printed are in relation to what players would pay for the items, not raw meso. Generating billions in raw meso would be a problem. Generating billions worth of items just means multi dk farmers get better gear sooner than non multidk farmers? And then that would be a separate discussion on power creep. But focusing solely on the economy, how does the roar nerf curb inflation?
     
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  16. Tarnished
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    Tarnished Selkie Jr.

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    2:32 PM
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    I think a Maple Tip pointing to an official post with a Tier List ranking how skills roughly compare to each other for droprate/kill is adequate. IMO it's unintuitive that rates depend on what skill was used to kill it, so it just needs to be clear enough to everyone that "if I'm hunting Mano for card, I probably shouldn't use Dragon Roar"

    But what I was really getting at is that there does not seem to be a long term strategy from Staff for dealing with excessive resource production

    Any class that can afk-farm can be abused to create too much value. Today, DK Roar was nerfed. Tomorrow, B-Step will be nerfed. The means of production goes down across the board, with single-client mains suffering the most as the time between each progression milestone keeps increasing. This is not scalable.

    But, if I understand the problem correctly, BT is only concerned with individual players generating too many resources because it throws the economy out of whack. Meanwhile, individual players really just want to progress faster. I don't think these goals are mutually exclusive, because there are ways to get ahead without negatively impacting others.

    Let's just look at the types of resource farming:
    • Farming of Services (i.e. leech/bosses/PQs) This doesn't really harm anyone. Yes the seller makes a lot of meso, but that meso came from someone else - not out of thin air. This is classic exchange of goods for services, a healthy transaction. It can be bad if it's so extreme that nobody can compete with a reasonable amount of investment, but I don't think this is the case.
    • Farming raw meso / NPC-ables. This is very bad - a small % of players are printing a ton currency, yet no goods are being added to the economy. Hyper-inflation.
    • Farming scrolls/gach/p.coin. This is moderately bad. We don't want a small % of players creating so many goods that the entire server gets power-creeped because goods are too plentiful. We also don't want a small # of characters to be come so strong that bosses and content needs to be readjusted so that only a small portion of players or classes can clear efficiently. Afaik, the game can tolerate a LOT of this though.
    • Farming of NX. This can reduce the amount of votes the server gets, and can speed up progression too much since it's the primary time-gate on raising characters.
    My suggestion is just that BT should share what they think are healthy limits on each form of resource, inform the community on the reasoning behind these limits, and ask for cooperation out of players. IMO ML is small enough of a community that there can be some expectations on how to be a good citizen, and some of those expectations could be "try not to print 80mil raw meso/hr".

    With any luck, not every form of degeneracy needs to be met with nerfs. If the bounds of the playing field are well defined, I think even the sweatiest player would prefer to play fewer clients.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2023
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  17. Mirrors
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    Mirrors Game Moderator Staff Member Game Moderator

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    2:32 PM
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    WeenieHutJrs
    What are you on about? The NL class has barely been touched in this server. What other nerfs did NL get in the past few patches?

    [​IMG] - Night Lord
    [​IMG] Alchemist - No longer increases duration of potions (Summer 2023)
    [​IMG] Alchemist - Increased the recovery rate from 150% to 200% (Summer 2023)
    [​IMG] Shadow Star - Damage will correctly reflect the star you consumed to cast Shadow Star (Anniversary 2021)
    [​IMG] Increased the attack of Magic Throwing Knife from 30 to 31 attack (Neo Tokyo release)
    • Revamped stars recharge cost (Anniversary 2022)
    Source - https://forum.maplelegends.com/index.php?threads/maplelegends-skill-changes.39396/
     
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  18. Edann
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    Edann Slimy Retired Staff

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    12:32 AM
    Edann
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    The gravity of this is finally setting in:
    You've essentially just confirmed to me that as a mage main EVERYTHING I've done in-game had these nerfed droprates even when I was never using my ult out of fear of a (possible yet unconfirmed) nerfed droprate - from farming apq keys, cwk badge exchange, farming sc20 for my NL and getting t25 on my main MM and bishop (and some more selling cards service) - I've been fucked over by an unintentional class-wide nerf over even my single target attacks.

    The absolute state of maple legends magicians
     
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  19. Mirrors
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    Mirrors Game Moderator Staff Member Game Moderator

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    From the way Nise phrased it, it seems like the "mage droprate nerf" was not a Legends-specific thing, but rather a V62 Vanilla modifier that they recently discovered in the code while refactoring other stuff. Hard to say how much of a modifier it is, but regardless, it is pretty unfortunate. :(
     
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  20. fartsy
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    fartsy Zakum

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    regarding farming of stuff, everything is commoditized on the server as there is no differentiability. this just means competition is based on efficiency and casuals will be first to take the blow.
     
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