1. Hello!

    First of all, welcome to MapleLegends! You are currently viewing the forums as a guest, so you can only view the first post of every topic. We highly recommend registering so you can be part of our community.

    By registering to our forums you can introduce yourself and make your first friends, talk in the shoutbox, contribute, and much more!

    This process only takes a few minutes and you can always decide to lurk even after!

    - MapleLegends Administration-
  2. Experiencing disconnecting after inserting your login info? Make sure you are on the latest MapleLegends version. The current latest version is found by clicking here.
    Dismiss Notice

The reason why our ToS needs to change

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by fael, Jul 6, 2023.

  1. Vowels
    Offline

    Vowels Mr. Anchor

    261
    235
    256
    Jan 23, 2019
    6:38 PM
    untrue
    Paladin
    200
    Pasta
    cause some people just see this as an 'us vs them' thing. Self-righteous players on this side, toxic players on the other side, they battle in the middle, very epic.
    if you have disagreements with ToS it's because you are a toxic idiot and not because there's legitimate concerns regarding autonomy, privacy, context, etc
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
  2. beegoratto
    Offline

    beegoratto Zakum

    1,701
    537
    465
    Sep 22, 2021
    Male
    2:38 PM
    leetoratto
    Bowmaster
    1
    Nimbus
    Yeah honestly it felt so unproductive. Instead of making arguments of why the ToS was good/bad or why the proposed changes were good/bad, just strawman arguments of "if you dont like the tos you probably just want to be toxic". The main reason this thread went so long imo is there's too many people making personal attacks and trying to judge others rather than trying to be constructive.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  3. -ovv
    Online

    -ovv Horntail

    2,764
    1,118
    520
    Feb 23, 2020
    Male
    2:38 PM
    -ovv
    Beginner
    200
    Honor
    The problem is the entirety of section 3. Abuse within the Community should be treated as civil cases as they always involve two parties. However, the punishments for these match that of criminal cases.

    I find it ridiculous that someone can get booted off this server for saying something unintentionally stupid in a public discord meant for shooting the shit, let alone making a joke in a private discord amongst friends -- and this could have happened years ago with strikes still counting toward your last. All it takes is for someone to be offended enough to report it - and the extent to which one is offended cannot ever be properly challenged or disputed by Staff. I can easily scrounge through the official MapleLegends discord and isolate exchanges between active players in order to submit a report based on the pretense that I am offended, even if not directly involved. The current version of ToS still allows for that, and Staff are held under the gun to follow through and are powerless to object to my offendedness.

    IMO, this is more destructive to the community than it is protective.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2023
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  4. OP
    OP
    fael
    Offline

    fael Skelegon

    907
    455
    398
    Jun 8, 2020
    Male
    6:38 PM
    Fael
    Night Lord
    200
    SURRA
    These last 3 posts pretty much sum up everything I had to say, specially the first. Thanks <3
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 2
  5. TORONTOTOKYO
    Offline

    TORONTOTOKYO Wolfspider

    510
    55
    320
    Oct 16, 2021
    5:38 AM
    i have a better suggestion. REMOVE PB. contentious boss that leads to drama and bans.
     
    • Creative Creative x 6
  6. TORONTOTOKYO
    Offline

    TORONTOTOKYO Wolfspider

    510
    55
    320
    Oct 16, 2021
    5:38 AM
    i mean. its true right. since when do u see drama and bans becos of other bosses, e.g. zak?
     
  7. Edann
    Offline

    Edann Slimy Retired Staff

    249
    136
    235
    Oct 24, 2020
    12:38 AM
    Edann
    I/L Arch Mage
    200
    Pasta
    It's all about creative react now
     
    • Creative Creative x 9
  8. Palladino
    Offline

    Palladino Dark Stone Golem

    141
    77
    161
    Apr 26, 2020
    11:38 PM
    Paladin
    Funk
    I love the maplelegends forums.

     
    • Great Work Great Work x 16
  9. OP
    OP
    fael
    Offline

    fael Skelegon

    907
    455
    398
    Jun 8, 2020
    Male
    6:38 PM
    Fael
    Night Lord
    200
    SURRA
  10. HV
    Offline

    HV Skelosaurus

    1,152
    959
    441
    Aug 1, 2015
    Female
    Suwon, Korea
    6:38 AM
    Verdict
    Bishop
    200
    Prism
    As one who is considered as one of end-game players (even though I'm quite doubtful for that), with my all heart, I truly wish to say, not every end game players accept toxicity and agree on It's bad necessary. or at least, I do think so. Toxicity can be excluded, and It should be. Recent ToS change is one of great attempts for that, and I do believe this would be nice step to going forward. I don't think this is perfect and 100% right, but this has potential for better future. I believe so.

    I'm curioused why this 'cursed thread' (I love this mention MirrorsMirrors LOOOOL) still luring ppls.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2023
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. fartsy
    Offline

    fartsy Zakum

    1,674
    1,523
    521
    Jun 29, 2017
    Male
    4:38 PM
    Fartsy
    Paladin
    Pasta
    conflict is inherent in human nature and exists in both war and peace. if there are forceful changes (see funny emote) it just changes to some different form (creative). let's not pretend it doesn't exist. i'm sure even at some more "inclusive" circles, it's taxing to keep up some illusion of a clean, perfect self.
     
    • Creative Creative x 4
  12. Nise
    Offline

    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

    2,059
    699
    500
    Jul 5, 2017
    Male
    Korea
    6:38 AM
    NoraONE
    Corsair
    189
    Sweetdreams
    Imagine how taxing it is for staff xD
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  13. -ovv
    Online

    -ovv Horntail

    2,764
    1,118
    520
    Feb 23, 2020
    Male
    2:38 PM
    -ovv
    Beginner
    200
    Honor
    Now imagine if the Staff position was treated less like a strict, professional obligation and more as a volunteer moderator of a small community? I feel like that'd be a lot less stressful.

    It's a given that Staff aren't perfect, and there should be no expectations for Staff to be perfect.
     
  14. fartsy
    Offline

    fartsy Zakum

    1,674
    1,523
    521
    Jun 29, 2017
    Male
    4:38 PM
    Fartsy
    Paladin
    Pasta
    I think there shouldn't be much of a problem if rules are direct without space for interpretation - as long as it's enforced evenly. It'd be hard to accuse staff of bias if a reason for enforcement is literally there, and will cap any discontent. It's not rare for players to view Staff as a club; percieved abuses of power just make players vote with their feet.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. -ovv
    Online

    -ovv Horntail

    2,764
    1,118
    520
    Feb 23, 2020
    Male
    2:38 PM
    -ovv
    Beginner
    200
    Honor
    I think this is wishful thinking in terms of policymaking.
     
  16. fartsy
    Offline

    fartsy Zakum

    1,674
    1,523
    521
    Jun 29, 2017
    Male
    4:38 PM
    Fartsy
    Paladin
    Pasta
    totally is, but we strive toward an ideal
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. TORONTOTOKYO
    Offline

    TORONTOTOKYO Wolfspider

    510
    55
    320
    Oct 16, 2021
    5:38 AM
    could be a utopia tho.
     
  18. Nise
    Offline

    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

    2,059
    699
    500
    Jul 5, 2017
    Male
    Korea
    6:38 AM
    NoraONE
    Corsair
    189
    Sweetdreams
    Think the problem is there is also a sizeable percent of the community that want the reverse. Actions/behaviors/lack of action are held against us. The smallest things we do are nitpicked and scrutinized. Reported for staff abuse, or rumors spread that x staff member is partaking in staff abuse. Etc.

    Then it no longer becomes a volunteer position of a small community, and more of a professional obligation.

    Often times, Staff is a product of the community, their actions, and their demands.
     
    • Agree Agree x 8
    • Like Like x 1
  19. beegoratto
    Offline

    beegoratto Zakum

    1,701
    537
    465
    Sep 22, 2021
    Male
    2:38 PM
    leetoratto
    Bowmaster
    1
    Nimbus
    This is an entirely different debate, but I think one thing that helps build trust with the community is a face they recognize and respect. Recently there's been several Staff members that cannot be identified (Abagnale, Noire), and while they may have perfectly legitimate reasons for that, it's much easier to give the blind benefit of the doubt when a Staff member is well-liked, trusted, and seen as competent already by a large portion of the community (Nightz and Glaceon immediately come to mind). Not saying that anonymous staff shouldn't be allowed, just wanted to chime in that people are more willing to trust a face they know and already trust, and more willing to nitpick and complain about someone who hides.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2023
    • Agree Agree x 4
  20. -ovv
    Online

    -ovv Horntail

    2,764
    1,118
    520
    Feb 23, 2020
    Male
    2:38 PM
    -ovv
    Beginner
    200
    Honor
    The problem I have with a ToS that gets changed due to a difficult decision is that it comes across as a means to wash over pre-existing flaws in the ToS.

    "Hey this player did ___ but there were no rules written about it, so we banned them and then wrote a new rule about it."

    The above fails to admit that the previous ToS had flaws, and that the player, even though they may have been abiding by the flawed ToS, was ultimately punished for it. I believe this is why Fartsy wants a set ToS (presumably, this is what Staff is already attempting) and wants punishment to be exacted only on them. In a sense, we're asking for similar things but approaching it from different angles - punishment should never be handed out if rules have not existed prior.

    That said, the severity of crime should always be the main focus for these types of judgment which was why I suggested the route that gives Staff ultimate authority, but that would require trust from players and training for Staff.

    Going back to the point of perfectionism, I think it's important to note that Staff, whether under professional obligation or as volunteer, should be expected to operate with openness and transparency about mistakes made, whatever it may be. I personally find operating behind a ToS and constantly tweaking it in an attempt to create some type of immutable system is the exact opposite of this.

    When the community itself is so small, I'd expect a conversation to be had rather than a series of pre-written rules Staff can follow to hand out judgment.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2023
    • Agree Agree x 2

Share This Page