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The reason why our ToS needs to change

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by fael, Jul 6, 2023.

  1. TORONTOTOKYO
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    TORONTOTOKYO Windraider

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    idk, but 1~3mths is definitely too short for someone with 4 strikes. as for ALL or main, idk? i mean there are definitely players who got p-banned but came back thru various means right?
     
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  2. OP
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    fael Nightshadow

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    Oh I just saw that. I actually think every harassment ban should be for ALL accounts. From my past experiences, I got ban on what you considered my main account which didn't hurt me since I wasn't playing on it mostly.
     
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  3. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    Spreading of falsehoods is mostly taken care of by the no public call outs rule. With the current version of 3.3.3, you wish to take this a step further and prevent falsehoods from being spread privately between individuals or small groups.

    While I do agree that spreading falsehoods about illegal activities such as what you mentioned is harmful, I do not trust staff to consistently deal with these issues in a fair / impartial manner. Furthermore, to what extent do falsehoods apply? Does spreading any false message apply for 3.3.3? What if a someone is spreading news about someone being a sexual predator or murderer with proof - would they still be subject to 3.3.3?

    The very nature of harassment reports are such that you take a story from ONE SIDE and determine if this is ban worthy or not. If you think it is ban worthy, you do not even attempt to get the other side of the story, you just ban the other person and have them appeal from a disadvantageous position. You often do not reveal the evidence on what caused the person to get banned to protect the reporter, and this prevents the banned person from properly providing their side of the story. This is problematic because harassment issues are rarely black and white and often require nuance and perspective on the situation to understand.

    If staff is intent on having maplelegends be surveillance legends, so be it. But at least let there be sufficient safeguards to prevent mistakes from nuking players accounts off the server - like removal of account ban for harassment offense.

    Of course all of this doesn't even matter, given the last line of the ToS - you are free to moderate as you wish, but I believe this version of ToS will have some unpleasant effects on the server down the line.

    Please note that the MapleLegends Staff has the right to use their discretion to ban you for any reason which they deem is abusive, disruptive, or otherwise has a negative impact on the server.
     
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  4. Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    The updated ToS is much more strict with the public call out rule actually. 3.3.4 requires:
    "An accusation that another player has violated our Terms of Services"
    In the aforementioned cases, it wouldn't fall under the 3.3.4 rule.

    Not quite certain what you mean by "disadvantageous position". Harassment bans are silent, so their reputation would not have been affected. Once banned, if they are legitimately innocent or it was a genuine mistake, bans have been overturned. They will continue to be overturned if there is a strong enough case against the ban (from a factual standpoint or a ToS interpretation standpoint).

    I'm not sure what case is making everyone say "EVIDENCE IS NEVER REVEALED" because evidence is revealed. Just not in its entirety. Especially for cases like boss abuse, bug abuse, it makes no sense for that all the information be revealed, as the reporter could be identified. Once identified, people will label them as a snitch and marignalize them all for doing the right thing (in most scenarios). Even when the evidence is partially revealed, you have players going on witch hunts trying to find out who the reporter was.

    So while we don't and can't always provide 1:1 relaying of the submitted evidence, the important facts, context, and relevant messages are provided in majority of cases. In the cases they aren't, please escalate the issue to a supervisor in the ban appeal. That said, if the team believes all the relevant facts and information was presented properly, a supervisor may choose not to handle the appeal.
     
  5. Luu
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    Luu Selkie Jr.

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    I think the limitations put on 3.3.3 in that suggestion actually make it too weak? If that was adopted, then if I were to, say, start Discord DMing someone with some seriously awful stuff, that it would fall outside the purview of the rules.

    I think it only makes sense to have that rewrite of 3.3.3, if 3.3.2 and 3.3.1 are made to not be limited to official ML communication platforms. I also agree that, if that were to be done, that it would then make more sense for 3.3.3 to not cap out with an outright permanent ban.
     
  6. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Zakum

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    Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on sending other people proven information someone is a murderer or sexual predator? Say I had like, a video of you admitting to murdering someone, or a news article of your conviction and sentencing in a sexual assault case. Is that still considered spreading falsehoods? Is that considered harassment, or legitimately warning other players of potential danger?

    Edit: assuming your identity was already known, and this wasn’t considered doxing
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2023
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  7. Mageor
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    Mageor Mr. Anchor

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    What if we hung out and I took a video of you picking your nose? I spread it around to all my friends, meme it, add special effects to the video, until it one day it accidentally leaked out to the MapleLegends discord group?

    It’s private, never intended for the public, just a fun activity with my friends. Never meant to hurt you or your reputation. Is this reasonable?
     
  8. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Zakum

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    That’s not harassment.
     
  9. Mageor
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    Mageor Mr. Anchor

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    Sorry made a small change. All this was supposed to be without your knowledge. If you still feel the same that’s fine too haha
     
  10. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Zakum

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    Still not harassment, imo.

    either way, surely I don’t need to point out there’s a huge difference between spreading an embarrassing video versus warning others someone is a convicted and dangerous criminal.
     
  11. Mageor
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    Mageor Mr. Anchor

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    what analogy are you making with someone who is a convicted and dangerous criminal and a player in MapleLegends? Seems very extreme for a video game.

    P.s. just saw that you were responding to nise’s post. But in all honestly he was talking about falsehood while you’re talking about it being true. Very two different things with yours being a lot less likely and also being illegal.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2023
  12. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Zakum

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    Extreme, maybe. But also not as unlikely as you would think. Is it considered harassment showing others an admission of guilt to an actual crime? That’s not a falsehood or rumor, it’s an actual truth.

    also how is showing people news articles illegal

    edit: I suppose this could be considered doxing, in hindsight. Okay say theoretically your identity was already known in the community.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2023
  13. Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    I'd argue that it wouldn't fall under 3.3.3, if you're legitimately just trying to warn the other person. I do think the emphasis is on "falsehood" or something that isn't proven, and only being shared through word of mouth / malicious rumormilling.
     
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  14. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Zakum

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    Okay, cool, I think we’re agreed on that then.
     
  15. fartsy
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    fartsy Zakum

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    but a fact doesn't have to be proven, or what is the bar to determine validity of proof?
     
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  16. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Zakum

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    3 separate MLA citations, at least one of which is a primary source
     
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  17. Signature
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    Signature Stone Golem

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    So you are saying that if im trying to warn a person of a confirmed irl murderer in this 2003 mush game which has its identity known to the public (e.g. using the IGN:xxxImDaKillerxxx) to which I have gathered undeniable proof of said mapler committing such heinous acts and I share these proofs/articles due to my worry, I won't get a strike according to the 3.3.3 rule of the ToS?

    This changes everything.
     
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  18. fartsy
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    fartsy Zakum

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    i think as long as it's not on ML platforms it's fine; else it's probably covered by 3.3.1 or something like that
     
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  19. Daydreamer
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    Daydreamer Headless Horseman

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    I think this is totally reasonable, however I think sexual harassment, stalking, and doxxing should be a separate offense. That behavior warrants a perma-ban on the first offense. I agree with others ITT that other forms of harassment should not necessarily lead to a perma-ban, though I understand simply not wanting to deal with a problematic player who has already been temp-banned three times. Maybe strikes should "expire" after six months without another strike or something like that.
     
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  20. askalade
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    askalade Mano

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    geez 19 pages of overreacting. I've been playing MapleLegends on and off for like 4/5 years now and i've not received 1 ban or strike yet. Mind you i am dutch as well and the way we talk is quite direct and sometimes considered rude or offensive to other cultures/nationalities. on top of that i've also got quite the dark humour and like to derp and clown a bit from time to time. Yet in all those 4/5 years of playing i haven't had a single strike or ban, isn't that saying enough already? I mean i'm not doing any hardcore runs either but i still socialize quite a bit and did my fair share of PQ's and stuff and never encountered any problems so imho there's rlly no problem with TOS or staff regulating/enforcing rules.
     
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