Buffing Mage Single Target DPM

i think current mage numbers are just fine - given the ease to level you can potentially spam mages and make all other classes redundant

 

If you are going to buff the archmage / bishop single target DPM, they should also be affected by PB damage reduction and do 50% less damage like everyone else.

The mages have already had their single target buffed considerably, and they were considered to be good classes even before that buff due to their farming capability.

 

How about making SE work on mages similarly to attackers i.e. +140% instead of +40%? This part never made sense to me.

 

I agree with the idea. I believe improving class viability in content is a huge win for the game. A lot of folks would love to main a mage as a valid attackers and i think it's incorrect to have a complete class archetype blocked from being good at attacking (some folks just like mages in mmos) .

As strong as mages already are in the farming department i don't think it justifies them from being completely irrelevant in most of the remaining content since this is a permanent sentence to mages being strictly mules and a stepping stone to an actual attacker. The benefits to this proposed change definitely outweighs the cons. Players who enjoy mages will be good enough to participate in content and perhaps excel in niche scenarios besides farming.

Who's going to complain about there being more bishop mains around who are attracted by the idea of being a support with relevant damage. I believe changes that promote class inclusiveness are alright. Don't forget there will still be a 50% damage gap between ranged and mages and 25% between melee and mages meaning they would NOT overtake attackers and will simply present themselves as an option for players who are truly mage enjoyers and care for certain degree of effectiveness.

I would also like to include that due to HP equalization (Hp challenging giving everyone the required hp for content) we should evolve our mindset from ranged vs melee vs mages (obviously mages should be weaker due to their other benefits)

By this i mean the game balance shouldn't rely on class hp as the cornerstone for validating a class anymore since between HP washing and challenge either players washed beyond the point where class matters or they have been equalized. The balance should truly and exclusively be based on the damage and utility. For example how can you justify heroes, darks and shadowers? Compare them to say buccaneers. They provide SI which is a significant damage boost to certain classes and have Tl which is single handedly the most OP utility buff while doing higher damage than those classes not to mention their pinning superiority. Even archers could be in theory problematic having very high single target while providing SE which is a massive damage boost. (I'm just offering perspective, not claiming they should be nerfed)

There's no real balance here when the aforementioned classes are cleavers but there's no real cleave content and even if HT meta shifted into cleaving it's still not enough to justify playing one of those classes from an objective standpoint (You could argue aufheben but currently it's not a boss you'd have to run long term since helmet is the only reward)

Part of my point is that letting mages do relevant damage is less of a problem than the balance issue at hand with melee vs ranged. Perhaps one day we will have a world where melee vs ranged vs mages isn't the topic and it's more about the damage and utility a class can bring, there shouldn't be a problem inherently with darks doing similar theoretical damage than NLs due to the challenges the class present and their lower damage uptime, or shadowers beating NL single target in a boss where weapon cancels and DRs are frequent due to their charging nate mechanic.

 

I'm sort of TL;DR over here, If this also adds into consideration towards lower level mage jobs, Magician, I/L, F/P, Cleric of course their 3rd job parts as well then I don't see a problem as to why not buff them, but if this is focusing on 4th job only then I wouldn't agree to it. Spread the love to all parts not one.

 

I like the idea. They won't do much more than they do now, since they will still be weaker than other jobs, but maybe they gonna get a niche, right?

 

Just wanted to add a point that when mage are viable enough to join bosses, they will ask for their own version of stance, especially in horntail.

Without it its still annoying asf to boss without it.

It also wouldn't be a bad idea to nerf blizzard/meteor even more at the same time.

As for farming vs bossing, there's only so many hours the average player is willing to invest in MapleLegends per day.

Alternatively to make mages more inclusionary without buffing ST damage, just add features to bosses where its almost necessary to have an FMA (like HT summoning 10+ wyverns) or PB summoning (12+ mini beans)

 

Here we go again. Threads asking for single target AM buff pops up every once in awhile, and it is evident that people partaking in the discussion or making the thread have absolutely no idea what they are talking about, because they simply do not play the class and regurgitate the same argument with the same spreadsheet.

Staff have already obliged with multiple single target buffs (back during SI nerf, elemental changes) and I personally think that mages are in a fine spot where they are now. They have a certain niche in several NT bosses and even without elemental weaknesses, serve as a great pinner when other conventional classes aren't available. I also believe that it is required that each PB run should have at least 1 AM to clear the minibeans during both statue and PB. I'm sure I don't need to tell you the QoL of someone dedicated to clearing minibeans and how much smoother/faster the run can go.

AMs themselves are already glorious farmers. Anymore single target buffs to it will only churn out more dollar-store AMs in the low-level leech factory, as previously seen when people would use their whack AMs to multimage farm and mule it in PB body at the same time. If you want to see 10mil statue/4mil body or 8.5mil DPM45 in HT, then AM clearly isn't the class for you.

Go make a NL.

 

My question is do you think these things you mention are a good enough reason to main AMs? Or do you agree with the notion that they are just a means to an end. I think what this discussion is trying to pursue is the possibility to include mage as valid mains. If your main concern is PB isn't it valid to add a % magic reduction to PB say 25% to keep the performance in PB similar?

The idea being presented is to provide certain degree of viability as mains and not almost exclusively as a class to build another. While I completely agree that their mobbing prowess proves problematic in a balancing sense I don't think mages have to be eternally doomed to just be that, farmers. Even though the game has historically been this way, it doesn't mean it has to be. The game evolves, something that would has never even been considered 4 years ago (HP challenge) is happening. The whole mage into attacker philosophy is already being challenged (while it's true that having a mage still has multiple benefits). Some players genuinely enjoy mages but also enjoy being viable in bossing and would appreciate better odds at content participation. What is being suggested here doesn't overtake any physical attackers it merely shortens the gap and with the scaling difference present in attack vs magic, physical attackers would always hold that advantage. From a design standpoint, holding any class hostage from content participation due to their inefficiency is an issue that I believe should at least be considered.

 

I think this could be viable if there were some changes to paralyze, chain lightning, and angel ray formulas to incentivize actually gearing a mage. I don’t think it would be fun to see barebone farming mages become good bossing mules… However, if someone wants to main a mage and is willing to spend lots of mesos to fund the char, it would be nice if it paid off.

 

This is very unlikely to become a problem. With the said change, even a very well geared mage is in the minimum end of what would be considered perhaps acceptable. Plus it's not like people who have farming mages have any benefit in participating in bossing instead of farming. This would merely promote actual mage mains to have some viability.

 

Even if you did buff Angel Ray you wouldn't feel it improving anything. The damage is so poor people would rather you heal and save them pots than any damage you could contribute with AR. The only thing I see buffing AR helping with is making boss card hunting a smidge less horrible as a bishop.

 

you can reasonably control 2+ poverty mages with macro which'll eventually make it a cheaper/faster option than gearing a normal attacker

 

Even cheap int gear is somewhat expensive. Making 2 poverty mages (assuming some int gear) would still cost a decent amount of meso and chances are you can fund an attacker to functional levels with a similar amount. By that logic why would anyone spend any amount of meso beyond the cost efficient breakpoint on items? Most players eventually make upgrades that aren't at all cost efficient (aka paying 500 coins for 1 dex) instead of making a new attacker with that amount of meso. Most players aren't looking to play the game this way and for those who are mages shouldn't make any difference in this conversation.

 

Thats true, most players are not - but the players who do are the ones that staff will always balance around. Just take a look at the 5 attack limit for mage ultimates, meso loot changes, etc.

 

My main point still stands, i don't think making 2 mage attackers would be better than 2 physical attackers. Lets remember that low end att gear is very cheap, while low end int gear still holds a bit more value. Multimage attacking would only be as much of a problem as multi physical attacker is my point.

 

the cost efficient breakpoint is different for each player and the reason why people go beyond is some items don't reach the market for months, maybe years. if you have to estimate the rate of return, (let's say att/meso) it should decrease with progression but if something doesn't appear in market for months and assuming you'll be playing in a years' time, you will be willing to reach for ever lower rates. currently the meta is already making multiple attackers that share the same tradable gears to get around daily/weekly limits for bossing.

at the end of the day such gameplay should never be incentivized. the endgame community thinks in terms of the balancing problem as "how do i abuse the hell out of this" and you can be assured 20 endgame players can do more damage to the game than 200 normal players

 

training/leeching/washing regular attackers is still very expensive compared to mages. just wait for challenges system and hp becomes less of a barrier