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Alt Tab Hurricane and Consistency Across different OS

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by -ovv, Jan 27, 2022.

  1. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    It has come to my attention that alt tab hurricane/rapid fire still exists in MapleLegends, but it is exclusive for only those who play on MacOS. For Windows/PC users, alt tab hurricane was patched out through code (although I have heard there are workarounds by using StickyKeys).

    As of now ToS only mentions that use of any '3rd party program' to replicate alt tab hurricane would be classified as a violation of the ToS (Bug Abuse), but I'd like to ask staff for some clarification on this matter.

    Is the use of stickykeys in general considered bug abuse? There are other cases where using sticky keys has been normalized (jump casting, jump down casting, etc.). If the use of StickyKeys falls under the category of 'using a 3rd party program', would these alternative cases be considered 3rd party program bug abuse as well?

    My proposition:
    If MacOS alt tab hurricane cannot be fixed via code, it should be made a feature in MapleLegends for all clients. I find it odd that one OS should have an unfair advantage over another.

    To add - in the past, alt tab hurricane was lauded as one of Bowmaster's primary features over Marksmen. With Marksmen constantly getting upgrades over time, the gap between both class's relevance to the game has been reversed, while niche use cases for Bowmasters have gone down. I'd like to propose bringing back alt tab hurricane as a MapleLegends feature for the Bowmaster class.
     
    • Agree Agree x 16
    • Disagree Disagree x 4
  2. OP
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Bump
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. OP
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Bump.

    Sticky Keys to alt tab hurricane on windows/pc confirmed to work. Will test on my mac sometime this week. Still waiting to hear back from staff regarding ToS.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  4. Pasta
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    Pasta Game Developer Staff Member Game Developer

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    Sticky Keys itself is an OS feature that we don't ban for having active, ofcourse.

    Using it in order to automate a character's actions is instead bannable, it would fall under rule 2.9, General Botting.
    I don't know the exact game applications of sticky keys; but, to put it simple, if they allow actions that couldn't be performed without sticky keys, then they are bannable.

    Casting Hurricane (or any other skill) in any way that is not the regular pressing / holding down of the key while focusing on the client is not allowed. This includes Sticky Keys alt-tabbing, and whichever OS-specific technique is able to reproduce it.
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
  5. UnknownCode
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    UnknownCode Nightshadow

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    Out of curiosity, would this also count towards using 3 of the same abilities on a skill macro and swapping clients?
    e.g Power Strike, Power Strike, Power Strike. (Magic Claw, Lucky7/Triple Throw, Strafe.)

    I'd also like to mention how to replicate it for macOS since KimberlyKimberly asked about it here
    https://forum.maplelegends.com/index.php?threads/afk-hurricane-still-works.40688/#post-272401

    You simply just hold your Hurricane hotkey using your mouse go over to any other client and simultaneously release Hurricane while clicking the selected client.

    Edit: It only works while lagging. (tested with vpn)
     
  6. OP
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Is there any way of actually verifying whether someone is using Sticky Keys/OS-specific technique? I find this to be the brunt of the issue - abuse that cannot be logged/tracked is still abuse, but if there is absolutely no possibility of regulating it, should not policy change so as to reflect this inconsistency?

    What would incentivize me going out and purchasing a computer to foot mule and play within policy when someone else could simply abuse alt tab hurricane and never get caught for it?

    Also, there are in-game techniques like boat jumping that basically require sticky keys to give a mechanical advantage. While it can be recreated without sticky keys sometimes, it's borderline impossible to do so consistently without it. Would this be considered bug abuse since it gives individuals an advantage?

    I personally do not want boat jumping to be flagged as abuse, but I also find it ridiculous that PC users have an advantage over Mac users, and I'd much prefer if this technique was implemented as a Maple Legends feature via coding updates to preserve user experience consistency across various OS.

    Likewise, I feel like the alt tab hurricane technique should be adopted as a MapleLegends feature.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
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  7. Pasta
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    Pasta Game Developer Staff Member Game Developer

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    There isn't (yet) a way to physically distinguish whether someone is holding down a key via Sticky keys or via a foot, or a paperweight for example.
    At that point though it becomes a matter of bot checking. While some techniques can be harder (not impossible) to track down, that doesn't mean that we won't punish the abusers.
    The problem with alt-tab Hurricane is that it's just a bug that allows a character to be played without playing. When that becomes one of the best selling points of a class, we have a big design issue that we should address in other ways.


    On the other hand,
    This can still be done in the same way (with more effort, yes, but still) even without Sticky keys, so it's not abuse.
    If it was something like, say, mapping ctrl-c, ctrl-v and enter to one single key in order to almost automate meso dropping, that would be a different story.
    The fact that this and other mechanics are almost stickykeys-dependant might be worth discussing in its own suggestion thread, it sounds like something that could be improved.
     
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  8. OP
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    -ovv Horntail

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    See this is where I think our perspectives differ - I see alt tab hurricane as a strategy to gain a mechanical advantage in support dps, which is central to a bowmasters role and play style in most fights (SE, hamstring). I don’t see being able to do damage while controlling other clients as ‘playing without playing’ - I saw it as a unique ability to be support dps while also being useful on another client, especially in the multiclienting meta we are currently in. Being able to weave in and out of your bowmasters client to make use of two attackers efficiently takes particular skill and was what made this game particularly exciting to me, dreaming up combinations of classes and skills to utilize single-handedly. But now we’re being relegated to being a dps turret that can’t talk, has to always pay attention and optimize in repositioning, and still does less effective damage than our other archer counterpart.

    I do hope staff at least understands that there is a pretty severe balance flaw between the two archer classes - marksmen not only outshine bowmasters in every area of content that is out at the moment, but they now multiclient better than bowmasters as well by being able to macro three strafes into one command.

    Edit:

    Also, I do not believe there is any way to verify an individual using alt tab hurricane with sticky keys in the same way there is no way to verify paperweight botting hurricane over someone falling asleep on their key press. There is just no way to distinguish a key press that is being held manually over one that is being held by sticky key.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  9. mard
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    mard Mixed Golem Retired Staff

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    Slightly unrelated, but is it confirmed that marksmen outshine bowmasters in all content? It's pretty clear that MM are better at PB (given how broken snipe is) but I'm actually not aware if that's the case at HT/NT. I suspect that they're pretty similar, although I'm happy to be proven wrong (although that'll just illustrate the poor balance between the two classes).
     
  10. OP
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Given equal funding, yes, Marksmen should outclass Bowmasters in basically any content that's not 100% free fire, and Nameless is the only relevant content out there that can qualify as such. Even then, an equally funded Marksman will outdamage a Bowmaster in free fire content until around lvl 180~190, when free fire hurricane damage will start scaling a bit higher with the increased attack range.

    However, as most content does require archers to constantly reposition, turn, and deal with higher defense thresholds, Bowmaster's effective DPM tends to suffer far more than other classes. To add to the disparity, Marksmen gain an additional self and party utility advantage over Bowmasters in the skill Blind, so they not only have an innate avoid advantage over Bowmasters, but they also support their party's dpm better by giving them all higher effective DPM (MM are Corsair's best friend).

    The only advantage is that Bowmasters tend to scale better with attack pots, but you shouldn't be using attack pots outside of scuffed situations when you're lvl 190+ anyways. And in content where attack pots really matter (PB), Marksmen still outclass Bowmasters in every way. The only other argument is that Bowmasters are not as buff reliant, but that tends to be irrelevant in these types of balancing conversations (look at DK vs Hero dpm comparisons and their reliance on SE and SI).

    Edit:
    To drive the point further, I'll pose a question:
    If you take 20 level 200 representatives of each class, which class do you think would have the lowest average DPM 45 in HT? My guess is Bowmasters, and that's even including Shadowers as sed.
     
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  11. Selquin
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    Selquin Headless Horseman

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    That is pretty much the case. At HT it is debatable, both classes are difficult to optimize in their own way and their dpm is comparable. BM have the advantage of being more flexible in being able to do more single target damage from the left and right plus the non-reliance on SI, while marksmen have the advantage from blind and slightly more overall dpm via cleaving. In any other content MM is clearly superior, with extreme god tier equipment the gap can be made to be not too big, but MM will still be superior.
     
  12. Gurk
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    Gurk Nightshadow

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    At the risk of furthering the derailment of the original topic, I'd say there isn't really sufficient data to make any claims with confidence considering there are so few individuals from both classes that post DPM results (and numbers from bosses that aren't HT and PB are non-existent). That being said, I would say that BMs outshine MMs in nameless, dunas (with a pinner), HT and CWK, with MMs maybe being better everywhere else.

    Comparing shad cleave DPM to BM single target DPM would be comparing apples to oranges though. Average DPM45 for a shad focusing heads as sed is in the low 5s (I really hope the average 200 BM does more than that), and in the low to mid 6s as not sed. Over 30% of overall shad cleave damage is also going to wings anyways after factoring in head cancels, but I digress.

    I would posit that the primary factor behind the apparent discrepancy between median BM and MM DPM in HT for end game players isn't so much an inherent class issue as it is a skill issue, and I don't find any fault with MMs performing better on the average but losing out significantly to BMs at the highest level. With respect to single target DPM, the highest DPM45 any MM has ever gotten in HT is ~7m and that's with perf timeless and the whole shebang, whereas the highest DPM45 a BM has gotten is well over 8. While it's true that with cleaving an MM can close this gap, it is obvious that single target damage is much preferable over cleave damage of the same amount as cleave damage is mostly moot if it doesn't far exceed single target damage (not to mention that about 20% of that cleave damage is wing damage). Also, if an MM cleaves they activate right arm, which is detrimental to squad DPM.

    And that's not even touching the topic of SI-reliance, i.e. for an MM to perform optimally an NL slot has to be given up for a bucc, which can only really be justified damage-wise for the squad as a whole if it is comprised mostly of rare high-performing sairs and/or warriors (what gain is there in doing more damage if it comes at the expense of overall squad DPM and ultimately results in a net loss).

    Yeah, BMs might require more skillful play to do superior damage but class balance shouldn't revolve around the average player, especially when you consider how bad the average player must be when you have 30k HP chars dying in PB (omegalul). That said, I'm completely for changes that further distinguish the two classes from each other (as with heroes and DKs), like perhaps further buffing pierce cleave or blind utility while buffing BM single target.
     
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  13. OP
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    -ovv Horntail

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    The point of the exercise is to showcase the differences between players of a class in order to learn something about the class itself and its relation to all the other classes. There are a couple assumptions you could make as a result of the DPM 45 tests:
    • the top players of a certain class all just happen to be unskilled therefore yielding lower average DPM results
    • the top players of a certain class all just happen to be poor and unfunded, therefore not giving a fair comparison across classes, thus the lower average DPM results
    • the class itself has a higher learning curve than other classes, thus leading to a larger range of DPM results
    • the class itself is weak, or rather, has too many weak points in its design and thus falls behind other classes (this point weighs in on the differences in dummy dpm over effective dpm)
    Of course, the whole truth most likely falls between all four points, but we don't have significant data to extrapolate from, so it gets a bit more difficult.

    However, I'm not sure why you're comparing Shadower's single target damage to Bowmaster's single target damage when a single-cleave Shadower adds to any run with meaningful cleave damage. It's well known that any 6-man composition can accommodate for at least one cleave. Shadowers can thrive in this role without having to fear over-damaging arms like a Hero or Dark Knight would. I say this as someone who has run many 6-man Horntails with lvl 190-200 Shadowers alongside an out of party sed mule. I'd go as far as to say I actually prefer having a Shadower over a Hero or Dark Knight most of the time since they have the ability to switch over to single-target, can provide smoke, and serve as run insurance in case sed mule DCs/dies.

    Personally, I find comparing Bowmaster's optimal damage output to Shadower's sub-optimal/restricted damage output more of an apples to oranges comparison, especially when the purpose of the exercise is to observe realistic cases of classes being played in their suited role. This would be like asking Bowmasters to cast arrow rain all run in order to compare their class rankings - it's not really true to the class's optimal damage output and wouldn't make sense to restrict the dataset in that way. A better prompt would be to ask players to submit their DPM 45s for their normal runs, or rather, a collection of DPM 45s to show their situational variance.

    With that said, I still believe Shadowers outdamage most Bowmasters in their meaningful roles, even as a sed target, and they significantly out damage Bowmasters if they aren't sed.

    As for the SI dependence and optimal party composition, realistically, you rarely ever get to run with these hyper-optimized compositions. An even bigger reality is that if you're recruiting for a 6-man, you're not going to get many level 200 Bowmasters or Marksmen signing up, and instead, most of the time, you're recruiting an SE from lvl 170-199. All of the Bowmaster DPM 45s that are above 7m are from one person, a level 200 hyper funded player who has the experience of not only one but two Bowmasters that has run over a thousand hours of just Bowmaster in HT. On the other hand, the 7m+ single target damage results we are seeing from Marksmen are all from non-200s who have probably spent significantly less time playing their class and without making micro-improvements.

    Also, we've yet to see any other Bowmaster post a >7m dpm 45 - not at 18x, 19x, or even at level 200. I'll refer to the four points above. The disparity within the class is most certainly a distinction from individual skill, but such a large gap does beg the question whether the marginal reward from perfecting a class over hundreds and hundreds of hours yield such an appropriate return for time invested or whether the class itself just has too many weak points that is being covered up by an outlier. Moreover, it seems like the gap between Marksmen and Bowmasters is growing smaller over time (and will probably continue to do so as more Marksmen hit 200 and learn new tech/micro adjustments to improve).

    Not to mention - Marksmen can be considered standalone cleave and absolutely do contribute to the run time if they are in a single-target only composition. This is not a flexibility Bowmasters have at all.

    Though, there is something to say about how arms currently behave in regards to aggro and cleave in general, but that should be reserved for a different discussion.
     
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  14. yurain
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    You meant marksman + SI, because marksman itself is still kinda meh.
    You have to accommodate for SI is bossing situtation regardless its a SI mule or bucc player makes your party forming more restricted.
    The lack of hurricane buffering still make right side HT a much poorer experience for MM.
    In cwk, BM out right shits on MM with hamstring.
    BM vs MM thread, here we go

    Back to the topic.
    The current stance on hurricane is that it should not be able to afk-hurricane.
    If it is still able to afk-hurricane, then it should be consider as a bug report.
     
  15. Gurk
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    You were trying to drive your point home about BMs, a ranged class, by emphasizing that even a shad, a cleave class, as sed would have a higher DPM45 on average than a BM. Of course a shad will have a higher DPM45 than BMs when cleaving. Heck, they'll have a higher DPM45 on average than all ranged classes but that doesn't say anything about the performance of those classes. Hence my comparison of shad's single target damage; it doesn't make sense to compare cleave DPM to single target DPM in an effort to highlight the state of the latter. Otherwise heroes and DKs would be the undisputed kings of HT.

    This is kind of besides the point in the bigger discussion but just to nitpick, sed insurance aside, you'd be better off having a hero or DK cleaving just heads than having a shad cleave as not only would the former have a comparable if not higher DPM45 but their damage would also be more meaningful. As for switching over to single-target, can't heroes and DKs just back up?

    All of the 7m single target damage results that we've seen from MMs that didn't focus wings (all two of them) are also from hyper funded players with cracked gear such that they've been significantly stronger than most other level 200 archers for a while already. I don't know if there are any other BMs or MMs that have that same level of funding, my point being that the numbers we see at the top for both sides are in no way representative of typical performance and because of insufficient data points we really can't adequately entertain the question posed earlier.

    We've got two 7m results from two cracked 19x MMs, one 4m result from a 15x MM with above average gear, some 8m+ results from a cracked 200 BM and a low 6m result from a modestly geared 19x BM. How can we fill in the blanks? Any statement regarding the average performance of each class can only be conjecture at this point. What we do likely have though are the respective relative highs.

    I'd also argue that MMs simply have a lower skill ceiling; you don't need a thousand hours to perform well on one and I'm skeptical of there being undiscovered tech for MMs (though I'd love nothing more than to be wrong).

    We also only ever really see the DPM45s of the most skilled and geared sairs and buccs, but I bet the numbers for your average sair and bucc in HT are abysmal. They definitely don't need buffs though.

    Like you said, because of the way arms behave it's currently not even known known whether MMs choosing to cleave actually reduces run time compared to just strafing the heads. The strongest squad at present tries to keep right arm from ever activating. It could very well be that MMs are better off focusing wings when RH is cancelled in a squad with no cleavers.

    Anyways, sorry for completely derailing the thread :)
     
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  16. Toon
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    (LOL i wrote this before reading gurk last post. Mb for redundancy)

    Reinforcing some of Gurk appointments and giving my insight on BM x MM at HT:

    1. PA damage is fake and activates right arm, making it cast seal, darkness and so on. I don't think that the cleave dpm boost makes up for activating right arm skills.

    2. End game freefire dpm from BM is much higher than similar geared MM. Roughly, it's like 12m from MM and 13 from BM. Snipe defense avoidance can't get even close to make up for that gap (highest dpm 1 for pre heads 10.05 x 11m). Besides that, any upgrade after this point scales better for BMs than MM and cost more than 10 ws per attack.

    3. MM is reliant on SI and can only hit heads constantly on left side. Today, for instance, i did 5 men HT and the NLs had to jump over to get SE. A BM focusing on right head alongside NLs is less dpm loss than making them jump over. I'm unsure if this strategy is better than staying right side along NLs and strafe + snipe wings when right head is canceled. The 2nd option may be better because after finishing all heads we had to hit wings for a couple of minutes. I'm going to test on the next runs.

    4. Skar is more skilled than the MM horde, but skill can't make up for 1.5 dpm difference in this level of gameplay. Also, skar uses coke pill and soul arrow.


    BMs are better than MM at HT. The 17-19x BMs (that can't reach 7m) you are comparing to the 19x MMs aren't the same caliber in terms of gear.
     
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  17. pharaoh
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    Personally I think BMs can be slightly buffed in damage- wonder if there's a way to do it as a multiplier such that the top end BMs benefit more than the average BM? BMs with god tier equips that are also solid and practiced mechanically should at least be comparable at PB, and currently they are clearly not.

    However, I would say BMs are completely superior to MMs at HT. MMs are okay on the left side of HT hitting LH/MH, but as soon as focus shifts to the RH/MH, they have very few options to optimize as a single target attacker. I've also experimented with the HT cleave strat multiple times now and although I've noticed about a ~800k increase in my DPM45, it hasn't sped up my runs. Maybe it could be useful to cleave in certain compositions, but I would say in the vast majority of cases it's better for the MM to focus on single target DPM and a well geared 190+ BM that knows what they're doing should be preferred in HT in almost all cases.

    On the topic of discussion though, I really disagree that enabling Alt+Tab hurricane is a good way to balance them just so they can multiclient attack on multiple characters. I would rather see them get a scaling damage buff or some sort of edge at PB imo.
     
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  18. akashsky
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    If you consider horntail's high weapon defense, my take is that marksman with SI is as good as, or slightly better than bowmaster in horntail due to blind. Blind is a pretty significant avoid boost that benefits the entire party. Without SI, bowmaster is certainly better as the damage gap is much wider.

    Overall, depending on how much you value being SI independent, I would agree with the MMs on this thread that BM > MM overall in HT. But if buccaneers are standardized onto HT runs, or a perma SI mule is available, I would find it very hard to justify that BM is strictly superior to MM.
     
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  19. OP
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Moreover, remove multi attack macros altogether. :^)
     

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