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Important New System for White Scrolls (Feedback Thread)

Discussion in 'MapleLegends Announcements' started by Nise, Jul 6, 2021.

How do you feel about the Prestigious Coin system?

Poll closed Jul 14, 2021.
  1. Strongly support

    190 vote(s)
    34.4%
  2. Slightly support

    130 vote(s)
    23.6%
  3. Neutral

    90 vote(s)
    16.3%
  4. Slightly oppose

    71 vote(s)
    12.9%
  5. Strongly oppose

    71 vote(s)
    12.9%
  1. Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    Hi MapleLegends~

    As mentioned in our Balance Road Map, the Staff Team fully recognizes the disproportional rate White Scrolls & Chaos Scrolls prices are rising compared to the rate at which the general community can make mesos, especially factoring in the huge disparity between bossing and farming we've noticed the past few years.

    Last year, we floated an interesting, but controversial idea related to removing the 'one-of-a-kind' label for boss equips in this thread in an effort to create a new market that could potentially revitalize bossing.

    After lots of discussion, yet again, the team has come up with a similarly interesting and similarly radical idea that might solve the concerns over the bossing and the availability of White Scrolls in the MapleLegends economy.

    This isn't going to be implemented until we gauge what the community feels about it, but it's an idea and we would appreciate the community to chime in.


    Proposal (note: this is IN ADDITION to the bossing revamp mentioned)
    1. Introduce a new item called "Prestigious Coins" [​IMG] (tradeable)
    2. Introduce a new NPC that buys & sells Prestigious Coins [​IMG]
      • NPC would BUY White Scrolls [​IMG] in exchange for 'X' number of Coins
      • NPC would BUY Chaos Scrolls [​IMG] in exchange for 'X' number of Coins
      • NPC would BUY various boss drops in exchange for 'X' number of Coins
        • (Eg) Bring the NPC Rocks of Time [​IMG] and receive Prestigious Coins [​IMG]
        • This could would serve to future boss runs from the supply & demand issue as more end-game players don't need said item
        • Other boss drops are being considered, but won't be publicly mentioned at the time
      • NPC would SELL White Scrolls [​IMG] in exchange for 'X' number of Coins + something else
      • NPC would SELL Chaos Scrolls [​IMG] in exchange for 'X' number of Coins + something else
        • (Eg) Bring the NPC 'X' number of Prestigious Coins + something else and receive a White Scroll [​IMG]
        • Currently uncertain at this point whether 'something' should be mesos or another ingredient/item
    3. Have bosses drop Prestigious Coins [​IMG] directly (as a physical drop that can be picked up, sold in a merchant, and traded)
      • Bosses that already have items that can directly exchange with the NPC for coins (such as Pink Bean with Rock of Time) will be excluded from this
      • Area bosses WILL NOT be dropping Prestigious Coins [​IMG]
    4. Make all White Scrolls [​IMG] & Chaos Scrolls [​IMG] untradeable (applies to existing and future scrolls)
    Examples of how this system would play out:
    • (Eg) A player earns a WS from raffle. They don't care about using the scroll and just want to earn money. They exchange the WS for "X" Prestigious Coins [​IMG]. Afterwards, they can:
      • [If they want mesos] Trade the "X" coins to another player.
      • [If they want CS] Use some of the "X" coins to get a CS & sell the remaining coins to another player
    • (Eg) A player has 5 bil spread across multiple characters. Rather than keep it in mesos, they would rather keep it in some "alternative" currency. As WS & CS are trade blocked, they would resort to the Prestigious Coins [​IMG] instead.
      • Unlike WS, where a trade occurs between just 2 people, this Prestigious Coin system would promote trade between many different people (people who have left over coins from the exchange, recent WS/CS pullers, people who have gotten it from bosses, etc).
      • This would allow for more equal meso distribution & curb the wealth disparity (rich get richer, poor stay poor).

    How We Got Here
    To come up with this proposal/solution, we looked at the various causes for why White Scroll & Chaos Scroll Prices have increased so dramatically in the past.
    1. RNG-gated (Gacha and CWK Exchange exclusive). Resulting in limited supply.
    2. Lots of end-game players want WS. Disproportionate ratio of those that WANT vs those that are WILLING TO SELL, which results in higher demand.
    3. High # of WS used per player (that's actually trying to use them and not hoard as currency). Each player needs between 40 - 90 WS EACH, which means 40 - 90 of this item (with its already limited supply) disappears into the void each time. Thereby causing even more limited supply.
    4. Used as a payment method (as it avoid taxes) for things priced :coin: 1 billion mesos+. Anyone that has lots of mesos on hand would prefer to hold it in WS than pure mesos. Leading to highly liquid players purchasing these WS. Adding to the demand.
    5. Used as long-term investment (eg. like how one would invest into bonds/stocks/crypto/gold and wait to see the price 'inevitably' rise)
      • Players who get the item might keep it instead of selling it, in prospects of it rising in price. Contributing to limited supply.
      • Players who have mesos want to invest in it, so they can get more gains passively (like stocks) and sell at an opportune time. Contributing to the high demand.
    6. Player bans contribute to price rises. Lots of end-game players have a number of WS on them. When they get banned for various reasons (account or permanent), this means less available WS on the market, constricting the already limited supply.
    7. Inflation. As the server grows older and more mesos are printed and injected into the economy, prices will eventually rise.
      • Note: This proposal doesn't tackle inflation. But it also doesn't contribute to it, as everything is made to revolve around player-to-player trade.
    The overall utility of WS (a way to perfect weapons, a way to avoid taxes, and an investment) are the major causes for the consistent price increase over the years. While everything drops, based on the current system, WS (and CS) prices will continue to go up.

    So what options are there to curb demand?
    • Slow down end-game progression = not feasible
      • We're already a top heavy server with lots of end-game players. Slowing down does nothing in the long-term, as there's already so many people in end-game status.
    • Reducing the # of WS needed per player = not desired
      • This would result in power spike/creep and would be detrimental to server health.
    • Therefore, it seemed tackling the other sources of demand (use as a payment method & long-term investment product) should be what we primarily look into.
      • To do so, we would need to introduce an alternative item that can be traded between players, that will have innate value
      • The item must also have even more utility & versatility than WS/CS, or else it wouldn't be used (eg. a 1 billion coin would still be inferior compared to WS/CS, hence not an appropriate solution)

    Why Is This Good? What Does It Achieve?

    Wealth Distribution & Bossing

    First off, this doesn't perpetuate the "rich get richer, and poorer get poorer" issue. With tying WS directly to bossing, there's always the concerns over mulability or catering only towards end-game players.
    • If anything, due to how coins can be spread out between various people, it promotes MORE trade with MORE # of people (including lower level players).
    Acts as yet another way to make bossing more rewarding.
    • Big issue with a large number of boss drops is that it is entirely dependent on player demand & in an aging server, player demand will always be low.
    • Creating artificial demand was one way to save these drops (and therefore the bottom line) of runs.
    • Allowing the boss drops to be exchanged for coins creates that artificial demand.
    • While PB isn't at that state yet, it's very realistically possible that in the next 2 years, it could end up where HT has ended up (and there's a realistic concern for that). Therefore, by having it tied to WS/CS directly makes things much easier to balance out.

    Providing Equal (or Potentially More) Utility

    Coins provide more utility than the current WS (as they can be swapped to CS or held in its normal form). It can easily become the new "go-to" currency for high end sales. The major point is the fluidity of this exchange. Being able to transition from boss drops to CS, or WS, and back.
    • That said, it might not have the same long-term investment capabilities as current WS.
    • But, speculative markets are unhealthy, and prompt hoarding or mass selling (which is exactly what we're trying to get rid of).
    • To prevent this, we'll make CS/WS untradeable. It'll forcefully push coins as the new currency.
    Does not completely invalidate the existing supply of WS and/or their net worth.
    • A big problem with any radical change (aka tradeblocking of WS or implementing expiring WS) was that existing WS hoarders would be severely penalized.
    • But, with this suggestion, people will still be able to "invest out" of the WS and into the coins.
    • The exchange is fluid, so you can easily change ur WS into coins, which allows people to continue to keep things as they are (even if WS prices drop).

    Equitable Solution for All

    Server does not get punished for the banning of end game players.
    • Banning end-game players with a huge stock of WS, currently means the available WS on the servers disappear into the void and diminish.
    • As this suggestion shifts the focus away from WS as a physical item and transfers it into a fluid coin, the server wouldn't feel as if they're being punished when a WS hoarder/whale is banned from the server (or quit).
    Another major concern we've faced is that WS prices are so disproportional to the amount of mesos earnable by players. The suggestion:
    • Essentially puts a soft cap on WS prices.
    • Raises up the minimum value of some of the (nowadays) useless or valueless drops.
    • Provides a safety net for things that could decrease significantly in value in the future (eg. Rocks of Time from PB).

    Potential Concerns
    1. Could be perceived as overly custom
    2. A number of high value items (WS & CS) will have their prices tied together
    3. Would mean the introduction of a new "currency" that might be confusing to players

    What We Need From You
    MapleLegends balance changes aren't based solely on what the staff thinks. Much of what the staff decide on is inspired by ideas and discussion from the community. Your suggestions, feedback, and personal experiences are all things we find to be very important and closely consider. For a change of this magnitude, we want to gather feedback and to hear the community’s opinions on this suggestion.

    Like last time, we'll first collect players' thoughts and initial feedback, so people can form a proper opinion in their heads. Later, we'll add a poll to the thread to see where the player base sits.

    Note: The outcome of the poll is for reference and may not directly dictate whether or not we will implement the idea.

    Edit #1: Elaborated on how the coin will drop from bosses.
    "(as a physical drop that can be picked up, sold in a merchant, and traded)"
     
    • Great Work x 30
    • Disagree x 16
    • Creative x 12
    • Agree x 8
    • Like x 3
    • Informative x 2
    • Friendly x 1
  2. Trion
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    Trion Selkie Jr.

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    In addition to all this, is the only current avenue for WS collection just from Gacha and CWK? Or are you guys thinking of adding ways to earn Prestigious coins without bossing?
     
  3. ryanlights
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    ryanlights Horny Mushroom

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    I dont like the idea of an NPC selling high value items like White Scrolls, etc for the same reason as XXXXXXXXXX had a meso hacker problem.

    Hope I don't get banned for bringing this up.
     
    • Agree Agree x 7
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  4. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Headless Horseman Retired Staff

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    This is pog

    I can't break it at first glance but I'll let you know when I figure out the good cheese
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  5. Kimberly
    Online

    Kimberly Administrator Staff Member Administrator Game Moderator

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    Our hacking protection is much better than the server you are talking about, but at same time I can see your concern as it might attract new hackers into the server to meso farm. I don't think we should stop ourselves from potential improvements just due to fear of hackers, though, personally.
     
    • Agree Agree x 16
    • Like Like x 1
  6. ryanlights
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    ryanlights Horny Mushroom

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    I believe in you Kimmy.

    MapleLegends forever.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 2
  7. Floris
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    Floris Capt. Latanica

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    I think all of us here trust and believe in your and the rest of staff's competence and capability to successfully keep any form of hacker at bay. Thus I agree it shouldn't be a major concern.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. xRuru
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    xRuru Mano

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    Would scrolls sell and buy for the same number of coins? And would WS and CS be the only items in the NPC store?

    Example: Roll one WS from gach, sell for X coins. Realize a month later you need to use WS, buyback for X coins plus Meso.

    Apart from that I think the biggest concern with doing something like this would be how rare would the coins be and how many coins it would take for the items in the store.
     
  9. Bergboy
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    Bergboy Orange Mushroom

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    Love this proposal, great work from all the staff and players involved in drafting up this work.
    HT invites again when Nise bby?
     
  10. Floris
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    Floris Capt. Latanica

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    I think one concern that is not mentioned but I feel might have to be considered is that it inherently also leads to slight power creep. By this I mean:

    - White scrolls / chaos scrolls become more available (soft cap on prices you mentioned and more supply)
    - More players perfect their weapons (as they will be able to afford doing so sooner because of the soft cap limiting the prices / obtaining them through bossing themselves)
    - More players will start trying to perfect other equipment / chaos scroll gloves etc. (thus becoming stronger)

    Now this obviously isn't necessarily a bad thing and I think most of us feel that it would be better to have this slightly sped up power creep than having white scrolls be 500m in a year and thus requiring an absurd amount of hours of farming (while doing quad mage shenanigans) to just obtain the mesos for one white scroll. However, I feel it should be considered <3
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  11. Daydreamer
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    Daydreamer Capt. Latanica

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    I don't really like having lots of confusing custom systems like this in the game... how about make it so bosses drop WS and Cold Eyes/Drummer Bunnies drop CS?
     
    • Agree Agree x 11
    • Creative Creative x 2
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  12. Selquin
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    Selquin Nightshadow

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    The most important issue currently in the game is the state of bossing profits, I believe that if this proposed change is implemented well it could solve this problem. If the coin system is implemented, it is important that coins drop from the boss like a normal drop rather than being awarded to anyone in the party like NT coins or event points, otherwise we would have too many muling shenanigan's. Although I think there is no real issue with introducing a coin system, I wonder if its necessary if the goal is to improve bossing profits. I think it is enough to simply give important bosses a small chance to drop cs/ws.
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Ainz
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    Ainz Headless Horseman

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    Disclaimer: I am very stupid and I tend to overlook things

    Posting an excerpt from Discord conversation because I wanted to bring it up and it'd get lost there in seconds.

    "Right ok so my point is very specifically aimed at the fact that BT (supposedly?) wanted to stop the use of CS/WS as currency.

    In this case, if the prestigious coins are tradeable, that means that you could still essentially use CS/WS as currency.

    Let's hypothetically say I'd want to buy a weapon for 5ws (completely arbitrary number), if I have the 5ws, I would just go to Mr. NPC, exchange my 5ws for a hypothetical 5 million coins and hand the person my 5 million coins"


    Don't get me wrong, I love the suggestion, I just feel like this specific point (ws/cs as currency) isn't resolved.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Informative Informative x 4
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  14. Floris
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    Floris Capt. Latanica

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    I agree partially but I believe the coin system will be 'superior' in that finding the correct chance for bosses to drop cs/ws seems almost impossible. Ideally bosses would drop cs/ws at a rate that means the prices of these items stabilize. If it is too likely to drop WS/CS then the prices will plummet, if it is too rare to get them the price inflation of WS/CS will continue and the concerns about WS being a sort of long-term investment remains.
    I think the coin system has more parameters to tweak in this case; how much of which boss drops which amount of coins on average and the cost of WS/CS can quite easily be tweaked slightly.

    Besides that the mesos made by bossing would be more steady as well, by not having a small chance to get a large sum of mesos from ws/cs drops but instead getting a small amount of coins you can trade for mesos more regularly.

    EDIT: also splitting profits from bosses becomes easier, one can just split the coins earned instead of having to occasionally split an entire ws/cs
     
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  15. xRuru
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    xRuru Mano

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    I think that it is resolved in the sense that power players cannot hoard and therefore gate the cost/number of White Scrolls on the server. Nise said that the coins were an “Alternative” currency to using WS as a currency /investment and if this system were implemented with WS/CS being untradeable the scrolls themselves are no longer the currency.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  16. Assman
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    Assman Slime

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    White Scrolls and Chaos Scrolls are mainly the playas who are aiming to get from gachapon or the Raffle(Not everyone but i guess most of them). If i'm not mistaken from other server, i can't recall which one, they kinda have the similar idea like what your guys proposing but it was in some event that you be able to purchase from the npc using specific coins.

    And after that event the amount of WS & CS is double up. I don't know whether that will be good or bad for the market, i think limiting WS & CS isn't that bad as long as is not like 0.0001% to get it. Getting them is like playing lottery machine and hitting jackpot, and if there is more chances of getting it or buying from NPC then it won't be fun anymore right?

    To be honest is really a good idea, because it create a balance in economy. But this will definitely need more playas to look into it. No idea my feedback is any good. But this is all i got.

    No offence to anyone, this is just my opinion as a mushroom playa.

    Sorry for ma bad grammar. Peace.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. Selquin
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    Selquin Nightshadow

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    I dont see the different between assigning x amount of coins per boss kill compared to y % drop rate of ws/cs from the boss, the two are entirely equivalent once the coins are exchanged. You argument can be applied exactly to number of coins dropped instead of % drop rate of ws/cs.

    The extra profitability of boss runs and the number of extra ws/cs entering the market can be extrapolated in the exact same way regardless of whether there is a coin system or not.
     
  18. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    Since these prestigious coins drops from boss, and WS/CS do not, depending on the number of coins that drops from boss, will drive down both WS and CS values easily, which I believe is the main issue staffs are trying to solve.

    While you are right that WS and CS will remain as currency, they will, over-time, become less valuable.
     
  19. xSkyKing
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    xSkyKing Snail

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    Can't say I hate the idea of this as first read through this.

    I feel like there are some details that could possibly be included(If even a rough estimate). Cause depending on the details that gives an idea on how many more WS/CS might possibly jump into the market.
    a) Which bosses would be included in these coin drops
    b) How many coins would drop per boss hypothetically
    c) WS/CS I would assume would still be possible from gachapon?

    I find the idea interesting how instead of a WS/CS being a single large value it's sort of cut into many pieces instead now.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  20. LurkinShadow
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    LurkinShadow Dark Stone Golem

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    Seems like an healthy change.
    My only concern is whether or not the term "Bosses" encompasses 4hours-Dragon only.
    If a wide variety of bosses (exc. area bosses) would be added to the pool, I'm cool with that!

    Also, I don't really know how well would the so called coins be shared amongst runners.
    If they'd be tradeable, it could play out fine.
    If coins AND WS/CS may be untradeable, then only hosts/looters may win/lose in that case.
    Edit: Assigned looters can just buy them as ZHelms/HTPs are being bought if coins are untradeable.

    Edit 2: Would coins be shared amongst runners just like Party Coins in this very event?
     
    • Agree Agree x 3

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