1. Hello!

    First of all, welcome to MapleLegends! You are currently viewing the forums as a guest, so you can only view the first post of every topic. We highly recommend registering so you can be part of our community.

    By registering to our forums you can introduce yourself and make your first friends, talk in the shoutbox, contribute, and much more!

    This process only takes a few minutes and you can always decide to lurk even after!

    - MapleLegends Administration-
  2. Experiencing disconnecting after inserting your login info? Make sure you are on the latest MapleLegends version. The current latest version is found by clicking here.
    Dismiss Notice

The systematic discrimination against the Poison element in MapleLegends

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Oradious, Jun 14, 2021.

  1. Oradious
    Offline

    Oradious Mr. Anchor

    299
    104
    256
    Aug 28, 2018
    Male
    12:22 AM
    Oradious
    F/P Arch Mage, Gunslinger, Buccaneer
    200
    Pasta
    The modern bossing magician that has sprouted from the ruins of degenerate leechers has not done away with class antagonisms. It has but established new classes, new conditions of oppression, new forms of struggle in place of the old ones. With the slight rise in interest/popularity for the bossing magician due to threads like this, this and being able to overpower the skeptics like this, it is no wonder we see more bossing magicians come into play in this online microcosm.

    Our epoch, the epoch of the bossing magician, possesses, however, this distinct feature: it has simplified class antagonisms. Society as a whole is more and more splitting up into two great hostile camps, into two great classes directly facing each other — FP and IL.

    A total of 7 "elements" exist within the game, mainly Fire, Ice, Poison, Lightning, Holy, Heal & Neutral. As we all know, FPs possess the Fire & Poison element, with the summon having the Ice element, whereas ILs possess the Ice & Lightning element, with the summon having the Fire element. Of course, there are other classes with elemental attributes, such as the Bishop (holy), Corsair, as well as the Paladin with its myriad of elemental charges.

    Some of you might have noticed in the Discord, that there have been a slew of ILs posting screenshots of their shenanigans in Neo Tokyo. This makes one think, where is the opposing camp, the FP?

    Well, unfortunately, the bulk of Neo Tokyo Part 1, as well as Part 2, are heavily skewed in the favour of the IL, with most of the bosses having the 'Poison immune' attribute. In this section, I have listed out the 5 main elements (excluding heal/neutral), and detailed 'significant' bosses as well as the elements they are strong/weak/immune against:

    Those highlighted in red = unreleased content, info based on lib

    Fire:

    Strong: Ariel, Hugin, Pink Bean, Verga 1st body, Nibergen (all 3 bodies), Targa (all 3 bodies), Krexel (Left), Krexel (Right), Margana, Samurai
    Weak: Munin, Core Blaze, The Boss, Verga 2nd body, Scar (all 3 bodies), Bodyguard A, Rellik, Bigfoot
    Immune:

    Poison:
    Strong: Krexel (Right)
    Weak: Toad 1st body, Auf Haven 2nd body, Auf Haven 1st body
    Immune: Toad 2nd body, Core Blaze, Dunas (NT Part 1), Dunas (NT Part 2), Dunas Unit, Dunas Type D, Verga (all 3 bodies), Nibergen (all 3 bodies), Royal Guard, Royal Guard Type S, Bodyguard A, Targa (all 3 bodies), Samurai

    Ice:

    Strong: Ariel, Munin, Pink Bean, Nameless, Verga 2nd body, Scar (all 3 bodies), Krexel (Right), Margana
    Weak: Auf Haven 2nd body, Hugin, Auf Haven 1st body, Verga 1st body, Nibergen (all 3 bodies), Bodyguard B, Targa (all 3 bodies), Krexel (Left), Hsalf, Samurai
    Immune:

    Lightning:

    Strong: Ariel, Verga 2nd body, Scar (all 3 bodies), Krexel (Right), Margana
    Weak: Core Blaze, Dunas Unit, Dunas Type D, Nameless, Verga 1st body, Nibergen (all 3 bodies), Anego, Samurai, Black Crow
    Immune:

    Holy:

    Strong: Pink Bean, Krexel (Right), Holy
    Weak: Anego, Samurai
    Immune: Auf Haven 2nd body, Ariel, Core Blaze, Dunas Unit, Dunas Type D, Auf Haven 1st body, Royal Guard, Royal Guard Type S, Margana, Hsalf, Rellik

    One thing you might have realised, is that there are NO significant bosses that are immune to Ice/Lightning/Fire element, whereas 19 bosses are immune to poison (including NT part 2). As it stands, only the FP possess the poison element, whereas Paladins have the Lightning element alongside the IL. One might argue, that some of these bosses are also weak to Fire, allowing FPs to be semi-useful in these situations. While that might be true, you will still deal more damage with Paralyze on a mob weak to Fire compared to when you use meteor/fire demon. Therefore, this argument is moot.

    Additionally, there are also a significant number of bosses that are immune to holy, completely negating a Bishop to its knees and reducing it to mule status (unless you are 18x and have points in Big Bang, which even then, you'll be dealing a measly 2m dummy dpm).

    Here are some of the suggestions that I have to rework the current mess that elemental attributes are, which doesn't apply only to the FP:

    1. Elemental Disadvantage shouldn't be immune

    While the good ol' adage argument of "not every class is supposed to be good at everything" may hold some water, we have to note that in terms of single target, the 3 mages are clearly at the bottom of the DPM chart. Therefore, removing elemental immunity would still make a mage inferior to your general attacker class (except maybe in the case of Nibergen), but would open up NT as another area of gameplay for FP players to explore, which currently no one seems to do due to the extreme poison immunity.

    Implementing this change not only affects FP mages in NT, but also allows Bishops to be at least semi-useful damage-wise in the aforementioned bosses that are currently holy immune. This change also allows the Paladins to not be completely shafted at Pink Bean, where they are one of the bottom-tier and least desired classes.

    2. Rework elemental statuses across significant bosses if 1. isn't viable

    While 1. might not sit well with some, an alternative proposal would be to rework the current elemental statuses for the aforementioned bosses. As previously stated, when NT part 2 comes out, a whopping 19 bosses would be immune to poison, whereas there would be none for the lightning element. For weaknesses, the number would be 11 for lightning vs 3 for poison post-NT part 2. This seems to be heavily skewed in favour of the IL, leaving no room for the FP outside of zak/HT/PB.

    Instead of completely removing elemental immunity, perhaps it could be reshuffled out in some way to make it seem more even. It does not have to be a flat out normal/weak against poison, even a strong against poison would make it better than using Big Bang/Fire Demon/Meteor in these cases.

    Apologists
    Some might argue and counteract that mages are already gods at leeching, and they should stick with that and we should not open up another avenue for them to make mesos. However, the suggestions are mainly catered towards one area: Neo Tokyo. Everyone who has done Neo Tokyo knows how poor it is in terms of meso making. The changes are not going to increase the meso-making ability of a mage or its prowess in zak/PB/HT.

    If anything, this also allows the FP player to shy away from the general LeechStory life that your average mage player subscribes to when playing their mage.

    I'd also like if any mage player (casual or not) can describe your current 'bossing' adventures in the game so far.
     
    • Agree x 24
    • Like x 3
    • Great Work x 2
    • Friendly x 1
    • Creative x 1
  2. GunzGaming
    Offline

    GunzGaming King Slime

    26
    20
    31
    Mar 25, 2021
    Male
    11:22 AM
    FatBlunts
    Has the performance of Fire and Ice demon been tested on any of these bosses while working with the opposite mage. Fire/ice demon reads that it makes the monster weak to the opposite element. As a Paladin main, this helps a lot when attacking a monster with no elemental weakness. Also, does it work as described with bosses here in Legends?

    If ice/fire demon actually does what it says, and works on bosses, this pretty much clears up any issue imo. Paladins with both archmages could be a viable bossing team as they where in old school maplestory, allowing to manipulate the bosses weaknesses with already in game skills.

    This doesnt help poison/lightning out though. Which i also agree, playing with elemental weaknesses of mobs/bosses is a great idea and should be done. Neckson really fucked that one up.
     
  3. fartsy
    Online

    fartsy Zakum

    1,398
    886
    471
    Jun 29, 2017
    Male
    11:22 AM
    Fartsy
    F/P Wizard
    Pasta

    Fire/Ice Demon makes the mob weak to Ice/Fire respectively. Unfortunately it doesn't extend to bosses. X)
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  4. GunzGaming
    Offline

    GunzGaming King Slime

    26
    20
    31
    Mar 25, 2021
    Male
    11:22 AM
    FatBlunts
    If Threaten got extended into bosses, so should fire/ice demon. That would be pretty awesome. Hopefully it comes across the balance team/admin chalk board.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  5. Nise
    Offline

    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

    2,059
    693
    500
    Jul 5, 2017
    Male
    Korea
    1:22 AM
    NoraONE
    Corsair
    189
    Sweetdreams
    Just spitballing potential implications, but giving bosses like all body parts in HT weakness to fire element seems like a surefire way to launch Pallies into a super oppressively strong position, outclassing even NLs.
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  6. Fraiche
    Offline

    Fraiche Pac Pinky Retired Staff

    180
    43
    191
    Jul 20, 2017
    Straya
    2:22 AM
    Monobrow, Sheathe, Kasie, Fraiche
    F/P Arch Mage
    420
    Uchiha
    It's pretty sad how bad poison is on the ele table. Para is such a cool skill, wish it's more useful but most of the time other skills are better for the job
     
  7. GunzGaming
    Offline

    GunzGaming King Slime

    26
    20
    31
    Mar 25, 2021
    Male
    11:22 AM
    FatBlunts
    AH, Fire is much stronger than the other elements from the changes legends has done. Maybe rework how much more op fire is? But demon is a direct line only damaging targets in a horizontal line, and if I remember correctly the effect has a short timer, so it needs to be constantly attacked with ice demon to sustain fire weakness. So if comparing NL dps to theoretical paladin dps if ice demon worked on bosses, we should add SE and I/L mage dpm to that conversation. An I/L+Pally if demon works on boss would arguably still be less DPM than a NL+SE unless in an AoE environment where I/L can blizz, as well as have a F/p also using demon, but again, they would need to teleport around all over HT to sustain demon's effects which is not optimal. And that AoE environment would quickly deteriorate in horntail as parts start dying off. In a single-target scenario, for sure SE+NL is still better than Pala/Mage if demon worked on boss. Needs a test to confirm that's for sure. I could crunch theoretical numbers up if it really came to serious discussion, but I don't think it would launch paladin to #1 dpm.

    Sorry to hijack op about poison. Still think poison needs work and most of the op suggestions are on point.
     
  8. fartsy
    Online

    fartsy Zakum

    1,398
    886
    471
    Jun 29, 2017
    Male
    11:22 AM
    Fartsy
    F/P Wizard
    Pasta
    Hitherto, every form of society has been based, as we have already seen, on the antagonism of oppressing and oppressed classes. But in order to oppress a class, certain conditions must be assured to it under which it can, at least, continue its slavish existence. The Night Lord, in the period of leechdom, raised himself to membership in the commune, just as the petty Marksman, under the yoke of unchanged skills, managed to develop into competent bossers. The modern bossing FP, on the contrary, instead of rising with the process of industry, sinks deeper and deeper below the conditions of existence of his own class. He becomes a pauper, and pauperism develops more rapidly than population and wealth.
     
    • Great Work Great Work x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. Nightz
    Online

    Nightz Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

    1,806
    1,047
    490
    Oct 22, 2020
    Male
    6:22 PM
    Nightz
    I/L Arch Mage
    200
    Funk & Pasta
    Moderator Post
    As a bossing Ice Lightning mage I support this wholeheartedly.
    I would have 100% quit my F/P if I had chosen that path as a first char and kept it around just as a leech bot. Even though F/P does more dmg and reaches 1hit thresholds about 6 levels faster I think this is still a welcome change and a buff they do deserve.

    And before people say that mages are already too OP, if you want to be somewhat relevant in bossing with a mage you either need to be heavily funded (cost is rather insane compared to what it gives you) or you need to be an Ice Lightning mage doing Nibergen :3

    None of this would change anything to their mobbing capabilities
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. Soblet
    Offline

    Soblet Zakum

    1,388
    1,353
    491
    Sep 14, 2015
    6:22 PM
    Soblet
    Bandit
    200
    Pasta
    Isn't King Slime weak to poison too? I always got poison brace at 30 just for that.
     
  11. Nightz
    Online

    Nightz Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

    1,806
    1,047
    490
    Oct 22, 2020
    Male
    6:22 PM
    Nightz
    I/L Arch Mage
    200
    Funk & Pasta
    Moderator Post
    Nah it isn't, in fact it's Strong: Ice, Fire, Lightning, Holy
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  12. Soblet
    Offline

    Soblet Zakum

    1,388
    1,353
    491
    Sep 14, 2015
    6:22 PM
    Soblet
    Bandit
    200
    Pasta
    Rip lightning wins again.
     
  13. Nightz
    Online

    Nightz Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

    1,806
    1,047
    490
    Oct 22, 2020
    Male
    6:22 PM
    Nightz
    I/L Arch Mage
    200
    Funk & Pasta
    Moderator Post
    [​IMG]

    Poison is better against it than lightning
     
  14. Soblet
    Offline

    Soblet Zakum

    1,388
    1,353
    491
    Sep 14, 2015
    6:22 PM
    Soblet
    Bandit
    200
    Pasta
    My memory served me well then, I knew poison mages were good somewhere.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. Edann
    Offline

    Edann Slimy Retired Staff

    245
    131
    235
    Oct 24, 2020
    7:22 PM
    Edann
    I/L Arch Mage
    200
    Pasta
    (The following is my personal opinion, and is unrelated to staff)

    I 100% agree with the sentiment on this. I think the random poison-immune or poison-resistant on most meta bosses is entirely unfair and is very worth looking into. As always with balance changes regarding "battle maging" I don't know if I can confidently point at specific bosses or changes, but I think it shouldn't be too difficult to figure out, and is definitely worth it as FP's bossing utility is far more niche than an ILs for seemingly not a lot of reason.

    I appreciate you taking the time to bringing this topic up! I'm hopeful to seeing more people try out a battlemage in the future. I think there's very cool nuances to the gameplay that people might dig.

    PS: Think it's worth bringing up that fire and ice weak bosses only really cater to Paladins, as there's absolutely no way you'd ult-spam an entire boss run. The dpm doesn't even compare to just using your single target spell, especially while having to reposition and pot heavily, increasing the already laughably high pot burn.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  16. Ainz
    Offline

    Ainz Zakum

    1,695
    1,093
    490
    May 2, 2015
    Male
    Netherlands
    6:22 PM
    So many I keep forgetting
    0
    If only all suggestions were written like this OnionPerfectOnionGirlLove
     
  17. Hiyo
    Offline

    Hiyo Headless Horseman Retired Staff

    766
    544
    386
    Sep 21, 2016
    Kuwait
    7:22 PM
    Hiyo
    Camper
    1
    So, I was talking with OradiousOradious and Nightz777Nightz777 on discord about simply buffing Ice and Fire demons to be slightly worse or on par with the the other single target abilities mages have, which are Chain Lightning for Ice/Lightning and Paralyze for Fire/Poison.

    Reasons why I believe this change is better than reassessing boss immunities is because it is less work, and gives both arch mages DECENT single target abilities that are of a different element, ice and fire. That way, mages have more elements to use depending on the boss.

    The Demon skills functionality don't have to work on bosses, and if buffed by 2 fold, they will be very good alternatives to use, as their cast speed is identical to that of Paralyze.

    Magic Claw/Energy Bolt/Holy Arrow/Big Bang/Angel Ray/Fire Arrow/Poison Breath/Fire Demon/Ice Demon/Paralyze/Thunder Bolt/Cold Beam
    Booster2: 720ms (-90ms)
    Booster1: 750ms (-60ms)
    Regular: 810ms

    Chain Lightning
    Booster2: 690ms (-90ms)
    Booster1: 750ms (-30ms)
    Regular: 780ms

    Right now in MapleLegends:

    Paralyze is 290 Basic Attack
    Fire Demon is 140 Basic Attack
    Chain Lightning is 260 Basic Attack
    Ice Demon is 120 Basic Attack

    Please consider buffing the demon attacks so mages have a versatile elemental kit at their disposal!
     
    • Like x 2
    • Agree x 2
    • Great Work x 1
    • Informative x 1
    • Creative x 1
  18. MrPresident
    Offline

    MrPresident Capt. Latanica

    368
    127
    278
    Dec 19, 2017
    12:22 PM
    MrPresident
    Spearman
    200
    Not entirely sure how the demon skills work but aren’t they multi hit in a straight line and use fire/ice elements? If that’s the case then I’d prefer changing poison immunity to help paralyze. I don’t really see a point in wand 6 if fire demon ends up just as good as paralyze but maybe with tweaking it could work. I’d also be worried about people “2 hitting” at shaolin faster which is the only place I’ve seen those demon skills get used. Players would do 2 ults and then finish the golds with a demon cast to boost eph which would be easier if the damage gets buffed.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  19. Ainz
    Offline

    Ainz Zakum

    1,695
    1,093
    490
    May 2, 2015
    Male
    Netherlands
    6:22 PM
    So many I keep forgetting
    0
    I like the suggestion, but I feel like it might not do justice to the class in terms of restoring its 'bossing identity' (in paralyse).
    Bossing the summons would achieve a similar effect in terms of damage, would leave Paralyse equally useless :(
     
  20. Nightz
    Online

    Nightz Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

    1,806
    1,047
    490
    Oct 22, 2020
    Male
    6:22 PM
    Nightz
    I/L Arch Mage
    200
    Funk & Pasta
    Moderator Post
    Just an FYI he's not talking about the Summons Ifrit and Elquines but about the skills Ice Demon[​IMG] and Fire Demon[​IMG]
     

Share This Page