CWKPQ Balance Notes

First off, huge kudos to Kimmy and the team. Coding non v62 effects into the client is massively impressive, and is very exciting stuff for the future of the server!

My 2 cents is that having exciting content be nerfed is something that just "feels" bad.

CWKPQ is a fresh piece of content that requires a very large amount of people to coordinate.
Such coordination is what maple is all about, which combined with the lower level requirements makes the fun all the more accessible.
Having rewards unnerfed would make the entire experience more fulfilling for everybody

 

The more I think about this idea the more I like it. I think if it expires after 7 days it is reasonable for it to be un-nerfed, but if it's more like 30 days or more it should at least be slightly nerfed. This allows for a dynamic where you might have to have different gear load-outs depending on if you have MoN or not. This would also guarantee that CWKPQ would not be dead content since people would want to come back all the time. Again, more testing would be needed to get exact numbers.

 

If the issue is that MoN is to low level req,just make the lv req higher?
Make it 160 or 180 and everything solved. Kty

 

I totally agree with this. Make the level req higher to make people grind and make htp viable still for low lvls. Great suggestion mr rockler. Keep stats as is make lvl req higher.

 

Maybe make the unnerf MON lvl req like around 180 with last around 30 days to prevent becoming dead pq

 

Wow I like this idea a lot. Can this even be coded :lemesmash:

 

The high level non-nerfed MoN sounds like it could be a decent idea. The margin between HTP and normal MoN doesn't really contribute to power creep too much (especially if you compare it to stews or socks) and it seems like doing so would serve the purpose of making CWKPQ a niche for high level players.

 

I don't think there's a reason to raise the level requirement for MoN even if it remains un-nerfed (or slightly nerfed) as long as it expires after a short period of time (No more than 14 days imo). The lower level the player the less likely that they will always have a MoN on them as it would be more difficult to join CWKPQ parties while late-game players could easily farm it. Especially because I don't want this content, that is open to late 3rd job and early 4th job, to have the best reward locked for level 180+, that just does not make sense.

What makes you think CWKPQ should be a niche for high level players? The content is not designed to be locked for late-game.

 

Just because lower levels will have access to it does not mean it benefit them greatly. With the power of the MoN, it is exponentially better the higher level you are. Basically if you have a MoN, there will be no noticable difference in damage as players in the lower level range won’t even be able to boss thus make themselves useful untill they gain some levels.

 

Another thing I wanted to add into discussion is that NL's would receive the most amount of benefits when it comes to having an un-nerfed version MoN. This is due to claws naturally having much higher damage multipliers compared to other classes, thus this is why perfect clean claws only have 55 WA compared to lets say 110 for Warrior's dragon claymore. Just fyi

 

Since Nightlord is such a expensive class, it would help the lessfunded NL's to be more usefull

 

And even more powerful for people that are well funded. I'm not saying this to personally attack all NLs, rather a point to discuss about because its debatable
And by the look of it, almost everybody that is in favor of keeping MoN unchanged seems to be a NL for some reason. I think it would be useful to hear other perspectives on this from other classes.

 

No matter how good your gear gets you will never beat a NL on single target, only hopes to outdmg them is to cleave on HT or Zak arms. MoN is kinda op that's why I wanted it intact haha (also for the acc cos 6dex 15 acc could be better than HTs) but now is kinda same-ish but a bit worse than HT which is balanced in a way, altho most ppl won't do CWPQ in the end and will just do HT for the books as well and exp. You can't put anything with weapon attack in the game without counting on the fact that NL will get double the value form that than any other job, like apples or the always returning red socks that everyone chaos even tho they will disappear after a year.

I'm neutral atm about the changes but I will most likely CWPQ once for the good old times and barely do it if I even want to do it again (and find ppl to go in)

 

This is misleading. NLs also have stars (which a lot of other classes don't). So if you add 55+30 thats 85 attack clean.

If you want to take a look at multipliers, look at the TT damage formula.
MAX = (LUK * 5.0) * Weapon Attack / 100
MIN = (LUK * 2.5) * Weapon Attack / 100

So thats basically (Luk*WA*3.75)/100 on average.

Furthermore, NLs don't gain any damage on triple throw when it comes to secondary stat. Triple throw is only affected by luk and weapon attack.

As such, they don't actually benefit more than other classes, they benefit about the same. The only class that benefits the most are those that don't need secondary, like warriors.

 

For general range, you are correct that all classes use same formula. However, what distinguishes NLs from other classes is that it uses a special formula for Lucky Seve/TT as follows:

Code:

Lucky Seven/Triple Throw (credit to HS.net / LazyBui for recent verification):
MAX = (LUK * 5.0) * Weapon Attack / 100
MIN = (LUK * 2.5) * Weapon Attack / 100

No other classes have multipliers as high as that, thus making NLs more powerful.

 

Okay. Lets take a look at Dark Knights. Because their spear skill only stabs, they only ever deal with the 5.0 multiplier.

General damage formula:
MAX = (Primary Stat + Secondary Stat) * Weapon Attack / 100
MIN = (Primary Stat * 0.9 * Skill Mastery + Secondary Stat) * Weapon Attack / 100

For DK spear:
Spear (Stabbing)
Primary: STR * 5.0
Secondary: DEX

So lets imagine that dex is worthless and adds no damage for DK (This is false).

Max = Str*5*wa/100
Min = str*0.9*0.6*wa/100 This is not even considering that DK skill mastery is higher than 60% due to beholder.

Average = (3.85*str*wa)/100 , which is HIGHER than the nightlords WITHOUT even factoring in DEX which increases DK damage, and the fact that their mastery is higher than 60.

 

But then you aren't really factoring in NL's attack speed as well as having an ability to double the damage using SE. No matter how high the range is, it's quite difficult to beat the single target dpm for NLs as KurayamiLove said.

 

Thats just because NLs are broken. Are we not talking about benefit as % increase in damage for a single class? Of course the classes raw damage is imbalanced but thats because DKs have a different role than NLs.

In the end of the day, when we are talking about damage its calculated like this:

Stat*Wa*Skilldamage*attackspeed.

NLs win high on skill damage and attack speed, lose a bit on stat, and have lowish weapon attack, so yes, normal increases to WA do favor them slightly, but it actually favors any class with low weapon attack.

And BUCC is actually the class with the lowest base weapon attack, (their dragon knuckle is 83 attack max clean, whereas NLs have 86 attack max clean ( claw + star).

So thats what I mean by your statement is misleading. Pretty much all classes benefit about the same from extra weapon attack.

 

I think you misinterpreted my point. The reason why I said its worth debating over is because NLs have much higher attack speed as well as being able to benefit more from WA compared to other classes. Sure, DKs or other classes might benefit more, % increase wise, but they do not output nowhere as high dpm due to it attacking slower. The discussion I wanted to bring up is to whether people are fine with further widening the damage gap of NLs vs other classes even more by having an un-nerfed version of MoN.

 

Yeah i did misunderstand. I didn't get that you were talking about absolute damage. Also if thats the case, corsair should be included with NLs since their damage is pretty much on par with NLs.

I don't really have an opinion on the gap between classes, as most classes have different roles making the gap less of an issue in my opinion.