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Either make multi-computer boss multiclienting bannable, or revert the multiclienting restrictions

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Selquin, May 27, 2020.

what to do?

  1. Ban all boss multiclienting

  2. Make boss multiclienting unrestricted

  3. Keep it as it is right now(multiple computer allowed)

Results are only viewable after voting.
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  1. Selquin
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    Selquin Headless Horseman

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    9:09 PM
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    As you all know, there was a big change in the previous patch that makes it now impossible to bring multiple clients into bosses. However, by using another computer, this limitation can be bypassed. As of right now, my understanding is that multi-computer multiclienting is not bannable, and thus effectively legal.

    While I personally do not agree with the boss multiclienting restriction, I can see the direction the staff are trying to move in and I can respect their decision. However, the current state of the multiclienting restrictions does not make any sense. Boss multiclienting isn't actually banned, but rather just put behind a pay-wall behind owning a 2nd computer. A good chunk of the usual HT multiclienters are just doing business as usual with their 2nd computer(I myself was forced to dig out my old laptop).

    I have heard that in the past general multiclienting was initially banned on legends. Multiclienting was eventually made legal on the reasoning that people would just use multiple computers or VMs, so it may as well be better to even the playing field and let everyone multiclient instead of only those with the means/know how. The exact same reasoning applies to the current case with boss multiclienting.

    I know that kimmy has not formally decided with what to do with the case of multi-computer multiclienting, but I urge her and the rest of the staff to either make doing so bannable, or revert the multiclienting changes. If you do not make multiclienting bannable, people can and will continue to do so. I can live with a world with no multiclienting at all, and certainly one with unrestricted multiclienting, but we really don't need to be in this nonsensical middle ground state.
     
    • Agree Agree x 35
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  2. Haku
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    Haku Dark Stone Golem

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    8:09 PM
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    The current state it's in right now is straight up pay2win. I also find it odd that we're only applying this to Scar/Zak/HT. My guess is that the magnitude of not allowing mules in CWKPQ and Neo Tokyo is far greater here. I say we choose 1 side. Ban multi client/2nd computers or just revert back so I can sell scar helms again T-T.
     
    • Agree Agree x 10
    • Funny Funny x 3
  3. Satella
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    Satella Red Snail

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    I believe the reason why they are focusing Zak Scar and HT is because Zak and scar, many ppl are soloing it with mules on the side while selling helm service. for HT, i believe the staff believes without multiclient there will be an inclusion for newer players to fight HT. thats why those 3 are targetted.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  4. Fishy
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    Fishy Skelegon Retired Staff

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    but HakuHaku brings 4 chars to nibergen f3
     
    • Funny Funny x 5
  5. Samyy
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    Samyy Slime

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    I like to use alot of mules myself but it breaks the game and certain classes, it's not healthy for the community in the long run and will force newer players to give up cause they are not wanted for boss runs.

    Even if you can use 2 pcs right now not everyone is gonna do it and you are restricted to 1 mule only while if you multiclient you can bring 3+ mules easy which is broken. I say keep it as it is or make 2 pcs bannable.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 6
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. Kylethegod
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    Kylethegod Red Snail

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    Why is it that it is assumed that all existing Boss groups need to pick up newer players into their boss run as a replacement of mules? Are existing Boss groups required to pick up newer players who have less experience, weaker equips and less time spent into there chars. I see alot of players who find people around there levels and try to run 10man zak runs. 8-10man cwks (as they don't have mules).

    The multi client feature feels like you are targeting any means that would be of conflict with another group running with more ppl via. Scar/Targa 15m/35m where a solo player can mule and clear within the time allocated. Zak 20m AFK service where 2 players would bring a bucc in for 5m more and gureetee the buyer looting a helm. AFK HTP 100m where 2 buccs would be brought in and for 40m more gureentee the buyer looting a pendant without effort.
    Strategizing is part of game play in any aspect. No matter how well something is. there is always a better/more efficient way to do better.
    how do you look at lvl 18x-200 players and compare them to lvl 135s selling zak helms or 155s selling HTP and say that the level of difficulty should remain constant.

    An increase in multi-clienting was a result of not being able to run bosses prior to corona outbreak in which an average of 600 players were online (including multi-clienting) these players spent time and effort and countless hours of leech to make bossing possible. Just because there in an increase of players due to corona outbreak. Does not mean to punish the players that had been playing longer. early game event bonus exp during events is A+ to encourage newer players. but to take away from what old players worked hard for to make things work. If players get to lvl 180-200 and invest in making better equips. even without experience, they will be invited to runs. but again. targeting similar level players to run together and start a group together and not be expected to be invited to 6man HTs at lvl 160 because they have SE buff
     
    • Agree Agree x 14
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  7. Samyy
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    Samyy Slime

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    At 18x you can just run zak with 3-4 ppl and take more splits so it's not the same. Horntail you can just bring 2 REAL BUCCS and sell afk service if you wanna do that so badly.
     
    • Funny Funny x 4
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  8. JDPJHC
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    JDPJHC Mixed Golem

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    And what is so wrong about extra splits at higher levels? Why do we HAVE to bring real buccs? LOL why the fuck would a lvl 18x want 2.5mil helm splits? The restrictions y’all are tryna place on older and more diligent players is hilarious. Go get your levels up man :roflmao: and lets see if you still want 2.5mil splits
     
    • Funny Funny x 5
    • Agree Agree x 2
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  9. MrPresident
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    MrPresident Capt. Latanica

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    Just want to add that I think whatever restriction is put in place should also include other areas. How is muling in cwkpq, toad, BGA, NT any different than muling in zak, scar, or HT? I think muling in cwk, toad, BGA, NT is even more prevalent than muling in HT. If the goal is create an inclusive environment for new players then it should include all forms of bossing and possibly even training. Why look for a priest/bishop if I can just bring my HS mule? Why look for a bucc if I can bring my SI mule?
     
    • Agree Agree x 15
  10. Esmo
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    Esmo Pac Pinky

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    there’s people who play together from the same IP stop trolling
     
    • Agree Agree x 9
    • Creative Creative x 1
  11. Samyy
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    Samyy Slime

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    4 buyers 2buccs 1 bish 2 other attackers 20mea afk zhelm thats 20-80m split depending on how much helms and a chance to get gen 20 on top of that, seems your math is off also i solo scars in 30min or less using 2pc and make 20m+ how is that not broken? Got my levels thx.
     
    • Funny Funny x 5
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  12. JDPJHC
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    JDPJHC Mixed Golem

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    LOL yes investing billions of mesos into creating 2 attackers and getting your return on investment is completely broken. my fault my fault.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
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  13. MrPresident
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    MrPresident Capt. Latanica

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    Acting like 4 buyers on 1 run isn’t a clown move. Imagine paying 20m and you get a 13 stat helm with no reloot coz the sellers bring 4 buyers. Or even better wasting the buyers time coz only 1 helm dropped.
     
    • Agree Agree x 9
  14. KurayamiLove
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    KurayamiLove Skelegon

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    The new meta:
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
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  15. RegalStar
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    RegalStar Nightshadow

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    At the very least if you're bringing them on afk runs, you ain't wasting their pots at least! :joyful:

    Also, the funniest thing is that more intensive use of multiclienting (attack on multiple characters being a big one) is actually something that generally requires two computers (instead of two clients on the same computer) in the first place, so a multiclient "ban" without banning multicomputers basically amounts to doing worse than nothing.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  16. LurkinShadow
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    LurkinShadow Mixed Golem

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    Buyers have the free will to choose what run(s) to hop on. There's mostly shortage in HP eqps/HB mule/attacker for buyers hence the service is very attractive and indeed people buy it. How you get 20m at lv.50? Don't ask me I really dunno and I'd rather have my mule be the only looter but that's just me.
    For the topic discussed, I think having single PC owners suffer because they can't use their precious characters isn't right (I won't get into whether or not multiclienting as a whole is right/not) while having 2 (or more) PC owners have their profits raised by multiple margins.
    I'd say best balancing route you'd want to pick is ban (although harder to code that way as one may assume) multi-PC multiclienting.
    If you wanted much more people join say HT runs, the above suggested blow alongst the last blow exposed post patch will be inclusive and make you achieve that goal.
    And for whoever was in favor of reverting changes (Yeah you'd assume I struggled to join HT runs much including building 300+ active bossers' discord group so I'd def. be in favor of you guys); come on be real, even if you 6 PPL Horntail with properly 6 attackers (omg, no mules HT???) you're still gonna make huge profits and idgaf if you mark this as "disagree", that's the harsh truth and you must dare to face it.
    Edit: I trust our Moderators and Balance Team to actually find more suitable solution to put good use for your precious mules and you'd still have the right and freedom to pick that attacker over another. COVID-19 has posed challenges to all sections and created much bigger player base (mostly newbies, yeah) and you need to adapt selves.
    Edit 2: Do you think actually making future bossers/jobs extinct because of your own caprices of more available profits is right? look up DEX/Avoid Buccs!
    You've put alot in this game and none is gonna argue, but you're spoiling the Vanilla Old-School Maple experience for others. That's plain outsmarting that took a wrong turn.
    Edit 3: SelquinSelquin I'd suggest you add 4th option to choose from in your poll; You don't want to make multi-clienting as a whole bannable (only in bossing!) cus if you choose available option it'd just mean people will dump their man hours spent in making mules/mages/characters.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  17. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    I don't think its right to limit multiclienting since you screw over the players who worked hard to made their mules (a lot of them made for the specific purpose of multiclienting in boss runs).

    At the same time I don't think its right to let the server become a hostile place to new players. New players are the life blood of pretty much any server and we definitely want to make sure ML is a place they want to stay.

    I will go ahead and disagree, however, with a lot of people who claim that the current multiclient changes do nothing. There are a significant amount of players with only 1 pc that before multicliented and now no longer do so. Yes, people who played with multiple pcs still multiclient, but the changes have without doubt reduced the amount that people do this in boss runs like horntail / zak / scar.

    Now, the question is, do the current multiclient rules make the server a more friendly place for new players? In a boss like zak / scar, maybe. Since new players can start fighting those bosses with relative ease. In horntail, I think that its less the case ever since we got a 2 hour timer, (as 1 party HT runs typically require people who are lv 180+, and ppl lv 180+ are certainly been playing for a long time). It certainly makes horntail more friendly for support classes like buccaneer, and the people who are on the cusp of being strong enough to join 6 man runs. (People who did 4 man with mules probably need to do 5 man now, to keep the same timer, 5man groups with mules would need to go to 6man... etc).

    For 2 party runs, people didn't really multiclient in the first place since it typically isn't needed since u already have so many people.

    There is somewhat of a trickle down effect, where people who use to multiclient are either forced to take longer runs or recruit an additional player on to their team.

    I think the real problem here isn't multiclient, but rather how boss drops work in maplestory. Because each boss drops 1 set of loot to split among everyone in the expedition, it inherently favors smaller and smaller squads such that each individual person has a higher share of loot.

    Even if you ban multiclient, people interested in playing efficiently will still prefer to run with as few people as possible.

    The real problem that needs to be addressed is that bossing needs to be rewarding with a large group of people.
     
    • Creative Creative x 4
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  18. Kylethegod
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    Kylethegod Red Snail

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    At 18x running zak 3-4ppl is not worth the time unless you have buyers and to ensure buyers get through the run. you need 2bish+1 bucc or 1 bish +2 bucc combo. which means that 3 chars/people are already required just to ensure buyer will finish to the end (if you actually sold zhelms, you would understand that new players don't understand what's going on and no-one gives a 'how to survive zak 101' course prior to the run)

    In terms of HT, You can try bringing 2 Real Buccs into HT on a 6-8man run. what's your team comp? 2 Buccs 1Bishop 1Marksman 1 Dark Knight and then what is the other slot will you have and how you gonna clear. I can add 20 onyx apples onto that run and tell me how well that is going to play out.

    Let's run an 8man example. 2 bishops 2 Buccs.
    In any instance, at least 1 bucc will be left out of main party. So you are telling me, we should always have 1 person not included and left out. A 6man party + 1 bishop 1 Bucc and 1 buyer and call that an 8man run.

    A community is less toxic when people are less frustrated. but I am not saying we are giving hand outs. Rather these players pulled good stuff from gach or spend time grinding/leeching to pay for afk service. That is up to them to decide which they want. I've had a buyer in HT come to over 10runs and kept dying from dispell and using 6resses on 1 of the runs could not escape d.c at the last moment. That is 10 buyers I am losing out on but I took the job to get a buyer an HTP and that is what I plan to do. As a seller, it doesn't really matter since I could be like most people and ditch and get a new buyer. but the frustration of the buyer as well should be considered needing to spent 2hours a run. multiple times. to be stuck in cave, not being able to play and has no way around it only to wait until reset for the next run. just because we don't have mules to ensure they finish. If you want to bring buccs for the sole purpose of TL and pay them 100% you should also pay SE mules 100% just to SE and DKs 100% just to HB.
     
  19. Roy Yoo
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    Roy Yoo Mano

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    “old school” “nostalgia” server. makeup your mind kimmy. at least multi clienting was allowed in GMS. but also there was no washing in GMS either (hp washing buffs plz)
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  20. OP
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    Selquin
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    Selquin Headless Horseman

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    Well, I didn't intend to get into a discussion about the multiclient restrictions in general, but I'm glad you all agree that the current system is dumb and we need to take a stance in either direction. While I am here I might as well share some of my own views on the general matter.

    I think it actually is true that banning boss multiclienting will in fact make bossing more friendly to new players in longterm. The effect will not be immediate, the elite squads will more or less choose to run with the same people and a couple min of time loss, but eventually it should trickle down to the new players. That said, I'm sure this is enough reason to justify the change. Removing the 2 hour timer would also be noob friendly, in fact that alone would be much more effective in getting new players to join HT runs, yet it seems like we understand the trade offs and can agree this would not necessarily be a purely good change.

    I could try to argue that boss multiclienting is a non-trivial skill and that it adds depth to otherwise dull bossing mechanics, but I feel like such an argument will be lost on most people(its already been argued by others anyways). This is for the simple reason that most people who are anti-boss MC, and in particularly the staff, have not experienced bossing with multiple clients firsthand. So instead, I will focus on another consequence of of banning boss MC, balancing changes.

    Banning boss MC will nerf the classes that are dependent on party buffs. You can try to dress up the situation with flowery words like "encouraging party play", but at the end of the day there is an significant objective nerf on pally, dk, hero, MM(lul), mages, bishops. In the pre-2019 days, the endgame bossing meta was tilted heavily towards a NL/BM type of meta. The advent of SI mules was one of the major factors that shifted the meta towards cleave classes to result in a more balanced lategame bossing roster. Warriors became attackers on par with NL/BM's with he help of SI, bishops expanded beyond their support role to do actual significant damage, and even mages turned out to be more than viable in HT. I think this is one of the most impressive things that the community has done, we balanced the classes not with the help of staff implementing balanced changes, but purely with our own innovation. The loss of multiclienting would throw a lot of this miraculously good balance out the window.


    Before I get the comment "just bring a real bucc lul", real buccs are,
    1. Non-existant
    2. A terrible class that does no damage
    3. Played mostly by people who hit the godamn wing in HT
     
    • Like Like x 6
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