On the recent Shad buffs

Thank you Tim aka the #1 Shad in ML. I agree with the Assassinate buff I'm even more excited to get to 4th job LOL. Thank you once again staff for listening to the players and buffing our beloved meme thief class

 

we are aware of these things, things are already in discussion , enjoy the new buff , glad to know people are happy with the new changes

In HT , warriors use rush and have to stand on the edge too, just have ti reposition or its just "standing in 1 spot and pressing 1 button type of gameplay"

 

Thumbs up yet another thorough work done by great Tim.
I'd like to point out as extra the poor range (attack radius? Not in terms of damage dealt) in Horntail.
Left head of Horntail is nearly impossible to keep a steady dpm since you need to get much closer to head to actually activate the hitbox not to mention if you get hit and try to reposition finding yourself at the Bottom of the map.
But I guess it's kind of manageable if you compare it to our range at some of the above mentioned bosses.
I'd also like to point out that the Shadower getting buffed is huge and might make ppl joke less about Shadower mains like me and Blu and might make ppl convinced into making these.
That one really stresses out the idea that our Staff is devoted and connected to our great community!

 

Maybe more suitable for its own thread but can rush be fixed to always go to the end of the platform? Many times I use rush and it doesn’t bring me all the way to the end so i have to tap my way over without falling off. Or the other problem i sometimes have is rush going too far and it pushes me off the ledge. Not sure if other warriors have these problems but it happens to me constantly in HT.

 

Nice thread and its always a great thing to see some feedback on recent changes. I personally was rather curious to see feedback from a shadowers perspective (I don't have one) concerning how assassinate is now like.

Don't worry, I tried the same thing with corkscrew a while ago and had somewhat the same result haha.

 

Shadowers are very cool now. 10/10 would reroll from NL to shadower.

 

I personally don’t feel like Shadowers were balanced properly, and that they were over-buffed to the point that they are close to the best single target melee DPM in the game.

I don’t think I’d really mind that if Shadowers weren’t so good everywhere else in the game. In terms of survivability they are one of the top classes, in terms of training they are only beaten by mages, and they have incredible cleave to top all of that off. They were a well rounded class that could have used a moderate buff to Nate, but I don't believe it should be capable of beating most other melee classes in damage in almost every instance.

Personally I think too much weight is put on single target DPM as a standard of measurement. Bishops and Arch Mages don't have single target damage, but they still thrive because the tools they were given are wonderful for the situations that they were meant for. Shadowers had a decent bag of tools and were already capable of taking on most content in the game before the buff, but now I don't believe the class has any real drawbacks compared to the other melee classes. Looking at Shadowers now I don't think I can come up with a single solid reason to make a Hero over a Shadower.

Adding the 4th line to Nate was good, but personally I believe it would be more well balanced at either 575%x4 or 550%x4, rather than the 625%x4 that it currently is.

 

Maybe it's best to use numbers, up until now it's just been opinions and what I've seen around the discords, but whatever the numbers say I'd be more inclined to agree with regardless of my own personal feelings. I'd rather learn something than be right in any circumstances. But it does come with the stipulation that the only class I've really tested and understood to a high degree is the Dark Knight.

I decided to do a couple quick DPMs, one with the fairly standard 20 attack pot, SE, and MW20. The second test includes SI as well.
My notable equips include a 121 attack 13 str ski, 14 attack gloves, 7 attack cape, T10 ring, 10 attack 7 str 6 dex MoN, 6 attack popsicle, 2 attack shoes, 19 str top, 16 dex legs, and a 15 str 27 dex helmet

I went with 3 targets to get a more averaged answer.
Standard DPM - 6.213mil/min
With SI - 6.705mil/min

Those are the standard dummy tests. Honestly I believe the better metric for DPM actually does revolve around HT though, and the group that I usually run with does DPM 45s as their standard. Over the long period of the fight is where the nuances among all of the classes can really show their value[Except for Corsairs, RIP them. A Rapid Fire buff would probably help them there]. In DPM 45s at HT with 2 stews I've gotten between 6.8mil dpm with really shitty luck and 7.8mil dpm with exceptionally good luck.

Shads are great cleavers in HT because their numbers should be very similar to that using similar gear. It's really difficult for them to white Arms/Wings because their damage is spread out over more targets on average compared to other cleavers, so their damage to a single target is less than what other cleavers can accomplish but it's very similar in total because of the extra hit procs that occur from the range of B-step hitting mid head. It compensates overall for the slow cast speed of B-step.

I can't really say much about cwkpq because I don't tend to run it, stemming from it being frustrating to zerk with the random warrior boss buff capable of 1koing any DK who wants to use reasonably prices potions to 100% zerk. I could stick pet pot at 20% rather than 15% but it would impact the numbers a fair bit, and would probably decrease DPM by ~10-20% overall. In fact I likely don't do much other than HT because it is difficult to pot in most places without either spending more than you make[NT buff might've changed that though...] or sacrificing significant chunks of DPM in order to safe. Shadowers do actually have more HP than Dark Knights do, it only takes 8250 HP without HB and ~5300 with HB to be better off HP wise. Or we could just not zerk, but overall it's never felt rewarding to zerk, it's only felt like I've been punished to choose not to zerk and just becomes boring content. I suppose I write partially out of jealousy because DKs aren't that great outside of HT and are punished in most content with some fairly painful choices for how to overcome content, in either sacrificing their DPM or their bank accounts. With this buff Shadowers are great almost anywhere.

But at this point it just sounds like I'm complaining about Dark Knights so I should stop. They're enjoyable in HT but can be frustrating in most other places. Heroes are alright but with every buff to other classes they lose a bit of relevance as the jack-of-all-trades and become more mediocre by virtue of being overlooked. Paladins have always been really good with Heaven's Hammer but I'm not entirely sure how much the Blast range increase helped overall, they're still better off hugging Zakum to dodge stuns and better off using Advanced Charge in CWKPQ. It's easier to find a target in HT now but increasing the range of Advanced Charge would have done them even better.

 

The most important metric at HT is average dpm over the course of a body, the amount of whites you get doesn't necessarily reflect your damage contribution. Within an optimal 4-6man squad with good range-cleave balance and skilled ranged attackers who don't waste time attacking the wings, shadowers end up with average dpms comparable to warrior classes.
To give you an idea of what the numbers look like, here are the approximate 3 stew dpm 45's during HT bodies that our HT squad has collected over the past couple of months.
lvl 200 shad ~ 8-9m dpm
lvl 200 NL ~ 9-10m dpm
lvl 18x/200 BM ~ 7m/7.5m
lvl 18x DK ~ 7-9m (depends a lot on right head cancel and team composition)
lvl 200 bishop ~ 5-6m

Endgame heroes and pallys can get to around 8-9m (higher with SI), MMs should be slightly lower than BMs with equivalent gear, to the best of my knowledge buccs sit around 6-7m, and sairs are too laughably bad at HT to bother talking about (I dont know).

The ranged attacker dpm's tend to be pretty stable, but the cleaver dpms have a stronger dependence on the composition of the team. For example a team with many cleavers will result in each cleaver having lower overall dpm due to the fact that there is less overall cleave time. During right head cancels if the NL/BM decide to be lazy and hit the wings instead of the mid head (shameless advertisement https://forum.maplelegends.com/inde...um-cancels-an-obscure-piece-of-bm-tech.26358/), then this also reduces cleave time and lowers each cleavers overall dpm.
However, if everything is done correctly, then it is pretty clear that shadowers are pretty close to on par with warriors on the body. In addition high level shadowers have far more survivability than warriors, burn virtually no pots, less dependence on SE and SI, and provide smoke to top it off. Of course this comes at the cost of still being slightly weaker, but I would argue this is reasonably balanced at this point.

 

-no disrespect, but thinking only "DPM" is the main reason to play a class, shouldnt be the reason why classes are "op"
- you guys cleave 4 mobs... and if they arent bosses; they are mobs and they get stunned after getting Bstepped...
- Shads / Warriors (except pally) can cleave all 3 bosses at the bottom, thats pretty damn good, The more cleave you do, the better/faster the CWKPQ runs would be... I see no issue with shads in CWKPQ atm

we are still reviewing and looking at how the shad buff has been lately, but afaik at the moment, I've heard/seen alot of shads satisfied with the current buff. Remember man, sometimes people pick a class because of the kit/utility/playstyle, not purely for damage. If i ever played a Shad, I wouldve picked it because of how fun it looks. Same goes for Buccs and Sairs.

Shads are pretty pogs at literally everything, and now their single DPS is really good too.
- Shad becomes sed mule in HT, PARTYLESS and doesnt die the entire run at all
- Shads also do not need to HP wash, they CHOOSE too, technically Meso Guard already cuts their damage received in half, I know atleast 5 shads who has had 4 base int , and can run every boss out there, using the essential HP gear given out from ML content (of course when HB comes to play, but lets be real, when would you not have a DK on a boss run, not everyone is heavily washed)

- Shifter is 40% and not 30% (tbh why is this?)

- iirc , Heroes do more dmg than a DK , especially if a DK cannot stay under zerk threshold ( You'd have to spend hella mesos/pots to literally stay under zerking all the time),
-remember when you bstep you have iframes, so the whole high level avoid / 40% shifter / iframe bstep, you will barely get hit/touched, (Stance is lowkey meme but when it works, it works)

It sucks when there are new players who want to play a bandit or shad , and everyone else is just like "that class sucks in damage" , so they move to a NL or other class, when in reality 2nd job/3rd job bandits looks fun as hell.

 

(I CANNOT BELIEVE YOU SAID POGS SMH)

melee class, dagger range is smaller than that of a warrior, not much hp (esp when taken in consideration of the original, no-wash server), and obviously less dpm than their NL counterparts. Gotta think of things in the original context.

That's probably because they want to do damage.

The Hell levels.

Write a DK thread buddy i'll support u

 

If we're gonna nerf a class can we please nerf night lords first as someone who plays both, night lords are more fun and are INSANELY OP(like not only with damage but cmon 50% bonus attack duration is CRAZY). As for assasinate these changes are really nice, but doesn't elevate to shadowers as super insane imo because it only helps their single target. Like shadowers do only slightly less single target than warriors in my experience DPM testing, but for cleave (outside of horntail) its a decent amount lower because heroes and DKs use their main attacking skill always while when shadowers cleave they have to use boomerand step only which has significantly lower damage than putting assasinate in your macro (like 2mil or so dpm lower for 1 target comparing bstep to bstep nate combo/darksight nate combo). Shadowers are really strong at horntail, but that's only one boss which is extremely late game and honestly it only matters once you start doing 6 mans, which most people won't let you in until you're really high level. In 12 mans your DPM really doesn't matter that much.
In regards to grinding I got around 70mil EPH when gridning and i found that melee classes grinding with me got similar numbers (paladins specifically get some swole EXP) and saying they're second best in grinding compared to mages is slightly misleading since mages can get upwards of 100million exp per hour so the difference between 1 and 2 is a lot bigger than shadowers and all the other melee classes.
For survivability shadowers do have a lot but you also have to take into account that we are at risk of getting dispelled, while warriors do not have that issue. (we do trade that for not being able to get 1/1'd which is huge so its all just tradeoffs) To summarize, as someone who likes doing a lot of content it is really nice being not literally garbage at everything that's horntail now so yea really nice changes. (I made a night lord specifically because it was so frustrating how garbage shadower single target damage was for a long time) If changes should be made to weaken shadowers they should be to taunt (which did get bug fixed/nerfed recently) or meso guard (making it cost more mesos), or boomerang step (by decreasing stun change), not assasinate in my opinion.

 

Since heroes were mentioned I hope this isn't off topic, but I feel like their damage is fine. However, their utility is kinda meh since rage is really useless due to party bears being in cash shop giving 20 attack, so maybe they need some love in buffing rage, deleting cash shop attack buffs, or buffing enrage like concentrate got buffed. Also since a bunch of bugs are getting fixed I hope one day the shadow star bug will be fixed if possible . (Also off topic but shoutout to MMs they deserve some love)