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The reason why our ToS needs to change

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by fael, Jul 6, 2023.

  1. OP
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    fael
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    fael Nightshadow

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    95% was just an example. It's funny because nobody is answering the questions I made. I'll repeat: how exactly that helps the server?
    And who's talking about status and power? Are you talking about someone in specific? Because I wasn't. All that I ever wanted is to send some screenshots here without being banned (again) for publicly accusation. That's the worst thing. I can't even prove my point.
    Hey, some offenses were made through Discord when that wasn't bannable. A lot of drama were created long time ago. If I see someone disrespecting a person that I like, I'll fight back. That's how I am. If I see someone beating a kid in front of me, I'll act against. Am I wrong? This "don't get involved" stuff is bullshit. Same way, in MapleLegends, it looks normal for me to hate someone who sent pornographic nonsense offenses to a girl through Discord but has never banned for this. Strange to me is not to oppose it.

    Is it how you see? I started to get worried then. The community is made by players, and also the server. We should be looking to have an agreement.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2023
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  2. Mageor
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    Mageor Mr. Anchor

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    I’m not in favor of the argument that we should be ban someone because we are afraid of losing players. Power, popularity, status are typical real life examples of how people get away with things. It can be speeding, harassment, etc.

    I do think that standing your ground is totally acceptable. Just don’t escalate it to affect other players. Examples can be smega wars. You think you’re standing your ground, but to others you could just be just as annoying as the other person. Not you specifically. If someone is sending pornographic images through discord, report it not only to MapleLegends staff, but also discord authorities.

    Lastly, I’m not sure what you trying to gain by posting screenshots. If you black all the ign and stuff, maybe it’s fine, would probably have to ask what format is acceptable to staff. But what the staff is trying to avoid is public name calling. Unfortunately, this is the internet, it’s not a private and anonymous domain.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2023
  3. fartsy
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    fartsy Zakum

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    heads you're banned tails you're banned
     
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  4. OP
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    fael Nightshadow

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    Yeah can some staff clarify this to me? Is it ok to post some screenshots if I hide the name?
     
  5. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    People who are already planning on leaving because of the policy changes and annoying rulings don’t care about a ban. That’s why these policies are stupid to begin with. The excessive policing only serves to push people away from engaging as a community, and the punishment doesn’t match the purpose of policy to begin with.

    A dictatorship where people have the freedom to leave doesn’t make sense unless it’s worth staying in.
     
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  6. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Zakum

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    [​IMG]
     
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  7. OP
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    fael Nightshadow

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    omg ovv ure so smart
    wise words man
     
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  8. Mirrors
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    Mirrors Zakum Retired Staff

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    So a tl;dr of what you guys are suggesting is: no account ban after 4 harassment bans?

    Edit: How would you reword the current / new ToS to be better? What would be a proper punishment, and what would you do if they keep accumulating harassment bans?
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2023
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  9. OP
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    fael Nightshadow

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    exactly!! Mirrors!!!
    Let me tell you something. I 100% understand that you wouldn't agree with my suggestion. You wanna know how I know this? It's cuz you're so fking cute and you wouldn't ever be involved in any kind of drama, I'm sure. But people are different!! And you can't say it's wrong to react when you're offended before.
     
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  10. ryanlights
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    ryanlights Windraider

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    double or nothing?
     
  11. Pasta
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    Pasta Game Developer Staff Member Game Developer

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    Which changes are pushing people away, actually? I'm curious as to which part of the ruleset is seen as more strict than before.
    For the most part, they are clarifications on what would have previously been considered an offense anyways, except that now they are explained upfront.
    Is it the four-strike system?
     
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  12. Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    WHY CHANGE TOS?!
    Just want to re-emphasize the context that was mentioned in the Discord announcement:
    We adjusted the ToS over the years so that players had a better idea of what could get them banned. Back then we had griefing also under harassment. There was no multiple tiers of harassment either. You KSed someone? You swore at someone? You said something racist? That's three strikes and you would've already been account banned. In response to that, there were concerns of GM discretion.

    Player A
    : How come I got banned for extra days?!
    Staff: Because you using racist profanities in FM

    By clarifying these things and giving more codified punishments, GMs could then (in 90% of cases) immediately point to the ToS and tell you this WHY you were banned and also why you were banned for THAT DURATION. If players legitimately feel that this type of added clartiy = staff micromanaging, we can totally return back to the 2017 era ToS, where we only have one clause for each of the types of abuses like -ovv-ovv suggested. But I'm 99% certain that if we go back to a fully case-by-case basis, people would allege "staff is biased" even more.

    WHY CHANGE PUNISHMENT?!
    I want players to be 100% serious with me and tell me if they would really give a single player the oppotunity to harass someone 6 times without any account ban. And if so, how you'd justify that. Because before we changed the ToS yesterday, you could literally have and have all your accounts in tact.
    • 2x General harassment
    • 2x Discriminatory harassment
    • 2x Community harassment
    Then what happens after that on their 5th offense? By the time you've accumulated 4 bans on your account even if we take the shortest 1st offense punishments right, you would've been banned for around 30 days already.
    • 3.3.1 General harassment (1st offense) = 5 days
    • 3.3.2 Zero Tolerance (1st offense) = 10 days
    • 3.3.3 Community harassment (1st offense) = 7 days
    • 3.3.4 Accusatory harassment (1st offense) = 5 days
    • Total = 27 days
     
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  13. ralphjohnson
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    ralphjohnson King Slime

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    Very convenient for someone who has already been banned 3 times for harassment to say that the ToS does not work now that it has been changed for the person to suffer a permanent ban when committing this infraction for the 4th time.

    The ToS does work, but as a disciplinarian, the person committed the offense and was punished for it, in the case of a temporary ban on the account, when the person returns, he must understand that what he did was wrong and he must not act in such a way again. Once a person repeats some harassment action 4 times it means that he refuses to learn and behave according to the "law" and therefore a more severe action must be taken such as a permanent ban. ToS's mission is not to make people friendlier, but to teach people when they do something wrong and that action should not be repeated.

    To be honest, the old ToS was not being very effective in this part of the person being permanently banned because it required that he be banned 3 times in a certain segment of the harassment infractions, which were considered 3 different types, that is, he could commit infractions and be banned 2 times in each of the 3 segments, totaling 6 bans, and continue free to play. This doesn't seem right correct? The new changes make more sense, if a person of misconduct is still someone who spreads toxicity while playing and doesn't learn regardless of the punishments then he doesn't deserve to be there for the good of the server.

    In the past I was banned for harassment only once because of the owner of this post and I recognized that my conduct was not acceptable, my intention was to respond to an offense that I suffered with another offense, I agree that I was wrong and duly punished what was left for me was learn from my mistake and when I could go back to playing and be a better person and not have this kind of attitude again, I'm still a better person to this day and that's why I haven't committed any more infractions, unlike those who accused me who were also banned for harassment at that time situation and apparently he didn't learn from his mistakes and today he already has 3 bans for harassment behind his back.

    I think it's ridiculous for a person to start begging for mercy when he starts to feel the noose tightening around his neck.
     
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  14. SharpestEdge
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    SharpestEdge Slime

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    Is DISCRIMINATORY harassment not a serious topic???
     
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  15. Dimez
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    Dimez Stone Golem

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    I do understand fael's post is about the amount of strikes. But MOST of the complaining regarding the terms of service harassment section is almost never about the amount of strikes.. it's what can get you one of those strikes. Since the inception of new harassment policy, we've seen some extremely asinine bans.
     
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  16. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Zakum

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    read it again
     
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  17. OP
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    fael Nightshadow

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    You know what else is ridiculous? 75% of the people that I had some kind of disagreement in the past which lead to all my bans were the ones who disagreed with the suggestion. We can clearly see who's winning in this situation. It was never about feeling offended or trying to make MapleLegends a better place. It's literally about trying to make someone who you hate out of the game. Thanks for proving my point.

    And by the way, I'm feeling publicly accused and harassed right now. I guess I'm gonna make a Report Abuse with what you said.
     
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  18. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Zakum

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    Tbh I kind of agree. Many harassment bans involve things outside of the game itself, such as infractions which occur on Discord, which seems odd to have any form of permanent ban (which includes account bans) in-game. When a player blatantly breaks rules by in-game actions such as through hacking or RWT, it makes sense for in-game punishment. I can see this extending to speech within the game as well. But it gets a bit hazy when you start extending these boundaries to things like Discord messages. I don't think there's an easy answer but account bans for things that don't happen in-game feel out of place to me.
     
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  19. Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    This I can understand and seems to be the most worthwhile concern listed in this entire thread. I do want to ask though, if you believe the reworded 3.3.3 is still as problematic to you, since it has been quite heavily reworded + had strict guidelines for what could amount to it included now.

    With the added clarifications the "baiting" issues shouldn't be as big of an issue I'd like to think. But do let us know!
     
  20. Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    Would also ask you the same question as I did to Dimez up above~
     

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