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Buff LUK mages

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Daydreamer, Dec 9, 2018.

  1. Daydreamer
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    Daydreamer Headless Horseman

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    LUK mages are how mages were designed to be played. Wizet designed the equips around the idea that Mages would have LUK. Back when I played GMS 10 years ago, I saw quite a few LUK mages around. LUK mages are nostalgic. LUK mages provide an alternative playstyle for people to mess around with. Maple Legends needs to keep people's attention, because a server without players is not fun for anybody. Giving people a new way to build their character keeps people around.

    LUKless mage is strictly better than LUK mage. Why? Because LUK gives nothing except avoidability (useless) and the ability to wear LUK equips. 1 point of INT gives 1 magic attack, more MP per level, and accuracy on magic attacks. Let's look at the highest level staff in the game, which is a LUK staff. I am talking about the highest tier of Elemental Staff. To find it's magic attack, the formula is like this: (Weapon INT + weapon magic attack) - required LUK. This is because LUK does nothing. Every point of LUK is a point wasted, a point which could've been spent on INT. The best LUK staff in the game gives about as much magic attack as a level 8 wand. This is bad. This is punishing for people who want to play LUK mages.

    The highest amount of INT which can be gained from LUK mage overalls, shoes, and gloves is around 20 before being scrolled. This requires around 90 LUK. This means 70 wasted points of LUK.

    I don't want LUK mages to be better than LUKless mages. I want LUK mages to be viable. I want to narrow the gap between LUK mages and LUKless mages so that LUK mage is a viable alternative playstyle without upsetting the current metagame. Ideally, a buff would make LUK mages do about 85% as much damage as a LUKless mages. LUK mages would still not have nearly as much MP as LUKless mages and would not benefit as much from Maple Warrior. They would still be sub-optimal, but a funded LUK mage would be able to surpass unfunded LUKless mages.

    Here are some ideas for buffing LUK mages without significantly changing equips or abilities:
    * Make skills somehow scale on LUK, so that 3 LUK = ~1.5 INT.
    * Give mages the ability to crit on spells somehow, and make crit chance and damage scale on LUK, capping at ~60% crit chance. This would be cool, funny, and a bit different, but some may find it it too "chocolate-y" and non-vanilla.

    There is another option, given by some other pservers: LUK stat requirements could be removed from all equips. I feel that this is a bad option because it buffs LUKless mages, decreases the value of INT robes, and messes up people who already have scrolled gear or LUK builds. It's also chocolate-y in a weird way because it significantly changes equipments and power curves in a way which my suggestion would not.
     
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  2. fartsy
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    fartsy Zakum

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    Accuracy for mages: (INT+LUK)/10 - INT is equivalent to LUK when it comes to magic accuracy.

    Damage:
    MAX = ((MagicĀ²/1000 + Magic)/30 + INT/200) * Spell Attack
    MIN = ((MagicĀ²/1000 + Magic * Mastery * 0.9)/30 + INT/200) * Spell Attack

    From the damage formula, 1 INT is worth more than 1 MATT.
    MATK for both wands and staves: 15 + 1*level - including Element Wands and Staves. LUKless and LUK mages would have the same magic attack if there were no LUKless wands. Elemental Wands 5-8 gives a net 130 magic (145 average - 15 base).

    So the net effect of going full LUK until 168 relative to lukless is something like
    -130 magic (net from element wand) -0? from shoes -0 from gloves (easier to scroll common gloves) +4? net from scrolling on low level overall
    That isn't accounting for differences in the cost of wands and staff 30%.

    A pure INT mage would have 858 INT at 168. MW20 would give ~85 INT or 42 INT from MW10.
    A mage that goes 4 INT 1 LUK per level would have 737 INT assuming you cap your LUK at 168 for Element Staff. If you have LUK gear that might decrease your need (17 from targa, 22-23 from htp, 10 from MB, 5 from various rings, ) ~Assuming you'll have 109 LUK (or lower if you want to MW). MW20 would add ~73 INT or 36 with MW10.
    The net difference from MW20 and MW10 is 12 INT and 6 INT respectively.

    This is typical of any lv168 unfunded mage that I'll use as a base. I personally first started 1 hitting petris at 168 with MW10.
    upload_2018-12-9_19-11-41.png
    Literal worst case scenario: -130 MATT from wand, -6 INT (and MATT) from MW, +4 INT and MATK from low level OA (or shield, pick whatever)
    upload_2018-12-9_19-37-34.png

    75286.7843/89656.9688 = 0.8397

    Edit: Difference with MW20 will be slightly higher.
     
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  3. OP
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    Daydreamer Headless Horseman

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    Thank you for the detailed calculations and corrections. I added in that +20 INT from adding the highest amount of INT a mage could get on clean LUK gear.
    I am curious what changes you would make to improve LUK mage, or if you would leave them the same.
     
  4. fartsy
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    fartsy Zakum

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    I think LUK mages are pretty nice as they are - as long as the player understand what they're getting themselves into. 15% lower damage + less MP really sets you back though. The first affects the amount you can charge for your leech (1 hit or 2 hit) and the latter increases your costs.

    LUK F/P mages are actually faster from 70-120 than LUKless.
    upload_2018-12-9_20-20-21.png
    Faster weapon = faster explosion (only works for explosion)

    post-168 LUK mages should approach ~0.9 of LUKless - assuming the same items. More realistically, LUK mages have a easier time with their weapon though (so you can expect better scrolled staves).
    upload_2018-12-9_20-28-53.png
    This is like 2 INT from perfect and costs only 1m (Not my shop). An equivalent 151 TMA Elemental Wand is around 10m while 153 TMA is around 25m. Wand 30% is 12m on a good day and Staff 30% is easily 1m (and lower). In the end there'll always be a gap but it's not as big as people think (^:

    Edit: these staves are 163 not 168 but shouldn't shift things too much
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
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  5. OP
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    Daydreamer Headless Horseman

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    That's an interesting take, but I still believe that the -130 matt is a significant difference which could be alleviated quite a bit. As it is, very few people play LUK mage.
     
  6. fartsy
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    fartsy Zakum

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    Yeah, -130 due to weapon is huge at lv130 but it's as bad as it gets. A few of my friends were low LUK and washed it out later on. There are also some LUK mages that still play on the server but they're pretty rare. But yeah it's really up to you. At least it's not as bad as normal DEX warriors or thieves X)

    When you get over 170 it's not that big of a deal (minus leech expectations) since mages have terrible scaling. I'm pretty much naked half the time I leech petris or dukus (with clean elemental wand and bathrobe).
     
  7. Lionheart
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    The fact is that lukless mages were always superior even back in the oldschool days, only no one really figured it out at the time. Mages that went pure int were looked at like ugly weirdos (well they were) cause they weren't wearing the normal mage equips.

    Everything about it is nostalgic. But once again, it's the community and everyone's current knowledge that make true nostalgia impossible.
     
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  8. michaelxii
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    michaelxii Horny Mushroom

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    isaactsaiisaactsai , could you attach the spreadsheet file you used? The calculator would be super useful. If you just got it off the forum, could you post the link?
     
  9. fartsy
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  10. OP
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    Daydreamer Headless Horseman

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    I agree 100%, this is why I want a buff to LUK mage.
     
  11. emoimo
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    emoimo King Slime

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    i just want to bring attention to the fact that farty named this file uwu.xlsx
     
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  12. Library
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    Library Slimy

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    By that logic, the staff should buff all the weapons that require secondary stats with close-to-their-level counterparts or to gut the powerspike of items like Maple weapons. E.g. Stonetooth should have higher attack, or that Maple Kandayo should have their attack reduced or Avarice claws their attack and LUK increased.

    LUK Mages are viable. They are completely playable and there a number of them on the server. Are they better? No. Are they completely playable? Yes. Looking to 'narrow' the gap doesn't really make them more or less 'viable;' it makes them better or worse. (Edit: In the context that Maple isn't actually a competitive game, but I will admit there are tiers of characters and classes; however, they are all completely playable and don't get 'dumpstered' for existing in that they can't do anything)

    Any choice you make with stats, skill distribution, choice to wash (and if so, how much) are all options you have at your disposal and are in your full control; if we were to complain about everything, we really would have much less 'Maplestory' and more of a 'let's mod this to what my ideals are inside the bounds of Maplestory.' Modifications are fine, but I think the reasoning behind this post is incredibly small-minded; saying LUK mages are not viable is like saying paladins are unplayable.

    Paladins are pretty shit-tier in damage and require more washing than heroes; why play a paladin when you can play a hero? Because one chooses to do so. Paladins are still able to get through the game, albeit with a bit harder of a time; that doesn't mean it's impossible or that people don't do it.

    Also, look at SwordArtSwordArt ; this moron played pally til 19x OMEGALUL.
     
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  13. Lionheart
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    The problem is now we're talking about making completely custom mods to the server. While I'd agree if I was totally revamping maplestory, I would want to do this, for a "GMS-like" server, this is a no go. Not only does the entire economy and existing players' builds get screwed because we changed such a huge mechanic for one of the most common classes in the game, we deviate so much that it's not even close to "nostalgic".

    As said before, LUK mages ARE viable. The tradeoff is you get to wear higher level armors to slightly increase total stats more and get more defense. But... in terms of less INT, less MATK, less MP, most would say the defense boost isn't worth it.
     
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  14. Angbak
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    Angbak Timer

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    Reposting some of the calculations I did in discord

    Luk needed for lvl103 ele staff: 105
    Targa (INT) helm: 17 luk, 19 int
    HTP: 23 luk, 23 luk
    MB ring: 10 luk
    Neo Tokyo earring: 2 luk, 2 int, 2 ma
    Blue neli shoes: 3 luk, 2 ma, 3 int
    Red Varuna: 7 luk, 3 int

    Total luk gotten: 62
    Additional luk needed: 43
    Accounting for mw20, base luk needed: 40

    And all of these gears are clean unscrolled. Compared to a lukless mage, you'll be missing out 36 so of stats (40-4) and 27 ma (average lvl 130 ele wand compared against average lvl 105 ele staff)

    Total magic difference : 63

    If you insist on sticking with ele staves, you get to get them for a cheap price and cheap scrolls which will further decrease the difference. If you choose to go ele wand instead, you can remove the 27ma difference too

    All in all, at worst, luk mages are 63 magic difference away from lukless which is about 12 levels (including mw20)
     
  15. OP
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    Daydreamer Headless Horseman

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    Paladins have been modified massively to the point where they are better than Heroes on certain bosses. In vanilla v62 they are straight up garbage, on here they have been modified to the point where people do play them quite frequently. I feel that this change to Paladins kind of support my argument in a lot of ways, because even though Paladins are not better than Heroes in most situations, the significant buffs given to Paladins on this server (which are not found in any official pre-BB version of MapleStory) make them fairly popular.
     
  16. OP
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    Daydreamer Headless Horseman

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    Many classes on this server have been modified quite a lot, and the server has tons of regions, quests, and items not found in vanilla v62. I think this server goes for more of keeping in the spirit of pre-BB MapleStory than in copying it verbatim, and IMO, LUK mages being fairly popular fits into this paradigm.
     
  17. Lionheart
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    No it doesn't, because most of the changes made were things official servers did anyway. And if not were simply quality of life changes that made some skills actually usable and not garbage.

    Most importantly, these changes did not drastically change game balance or warp the economy. Nor would these changes make people want to change the builds of their characters.

    The change you want would not only change many gears mages currently use, but also prompt massive amounts of players to switch builds. None of the skill changes ever did this, and content from some other regions has literally nothing to do with the subject.
     
  18. DrJason
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    I was initially a LUK mage and slowly reset it back to INT as I got more LUK gear, until I was level 130. I still have 11 base LUK to equip level 60 mage gears (very minimal gains for higher level/LUK mage gear). As others have pointed out, for some parts of the game LUK is better than LUKless. For example, from level 103-130 I had enough LUK to wear the ele staffs which gave me more net Magic than I would have if I went LUKless with a level 70 wand. So not only was I doing more damage than my LUKless peers, but I also had saved a lot of mesos because scrolling LUK gear is cheap as heck. It is only in the end-game when you're trying to 1-hit things asap that it really matters being LUKless. And then again once you're 1-hitting things you might as well go back to LUK if you prefer to use the OG mage gear.
     
  19. fartsy
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    fartsy Zakum

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    All mages are unfunded. A funded LUK mage with reasonable gear has always been stronger than a naked LUKless mage.
    That's assuming you're willing to scroll on these clean, high level and high LUK requirement items. They have low resale value and common items like Flamekeeper Cordon are a lot better with no LUK requirement. In a lot of these cases, throwing scrolls onto these items destroy more value on average. The beauty of the current (common and low level) mage gear is that it's linked to HP washing. Even if you go the LUK route, you might just end with a common overall, a common shield, common gloves, and common shoes.
    There are already skill changes to mage classes. Although I don't agree with much of the changes, skill changes have nothing to do with AP distribution.
    Oh yeah you're right, LUKless is stuck with the level 70 wand until after 129 so it's not strictly better.

    From what I got here is that LUK mages are fine the way they are, unless you're looking for parity between LUK and LUKless mages.
     
  20. Annolis
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    As long as LUK mages and LUKless mages have comparable power and allow for different play styles, I'm content with the status quo. If there is some kind of preference for LUKless because it gives a massive advantage, then I could agree with Daydreamer. With that said...

    When we talk about nostalgia - which has always been a weak argument for or against anything - we keep hearkening back to the days when Neckson took over and started turning MapleStory into a money-making machine. Wizet is the original creator and I believe their intent for the game should trump whatever machinations Neckson tried cooking up (unless their ideas were genuinely a good addition). When I look at Wizet's original creation I keep asking myself questions like, "Why are there level 50+ helmets in this game when Zakum Helmets are a level 50 equip?" In this thread, though, I ask myself...Why are there mage equips above level 20 if everyone is goes LUKless? My three mages are all LUK mages, and I get some odd looks from people sometimes. The game lists mage gear in the shops and a new player would logically see they would need to put AP into their secondary stat in order to use higher level gear. Only a player with some experience might see a loophole in the game and dismiss their secondary stat and stack INT and use common gear. If the LUKless path is better than the obvious one, then new players will naturally feel deceived and betrayed by what the game is telling all players. So it is of paramount importance that each path is of equivalent standing. I'm going to admit that I don't really know what Isaac has presented because, despite being a math teacher, I never examined the numbers too closely to care - I just want to play the game without having to think...I get off work and I just want to veg - but I'm going to trust his conclusions. It sounds like Isaac has presented a case that both paths have equivalent power at the end, but widely different game play on their paths - AND THIS IS A GOOD...no...GREAT THING!!!

    The only way I could see this getting better is if the LUKless mage can unlock a particular skill that no other mage could get unless they went LUKless (like...if they start putting stats into LUK after getting the skill, the skill disappears or is impotent due to a -LUK in the equation). Meanwhile, if the Elemental Wands and Staves all have a LUK requirement, then only LUK mages can use them for greater damage. Now I'm not sure what the skill for LUKless mages could be, but it would have to be worth sacrificing DPS. This would lead us to not just three types of mages, but six! I think this would be a better way to grow job types rather than introducing the "Hero" classes that began to take away from the game. (The other idea I've had along this line would be the types of weapons used by Warriors to make distinctively different classes if a Paladin wielded a sword versus a BW, and a Hero carrying a sword versus an axe, or a Dark Knight carrying a Pole Arm versus a Spear). I know what I'm suggesting here isn't something that could be done overnight - this would require a lot of forethought and testing to ensure fair game play and a hell of a lot of coding. Nevertheless, I think growing the game in this fashion is more of a Wizet idea rather than a Neckson (Zakum Helmet) idea. So as long as there is balance, I'm in favor of having both paths.

    Why I think Zakum Helmets are bad!
    First off, I wouldn't want to remove Zakum Helmets, but I would want them to be made into Rings rather than Helmets. The reason is because the Zakum Helmet is clearly an incentive of Neckson's to get people to buy cosmetic helmets. The level 50 requirement is low enough that casual players could wear them, powerful enough that everyone would want one, and ugly and annoying enough that people would want to get, at the every least, a transparent hat. I keep asking myself, "Why are there level 100-120 equips for each class, including a helmet, if not a single person would ever be stupid enough to wear it instead of a Zakum Helmet? One thing I did like that Neckson did after Big Bang was to give stat bonuses for wearing a complete set of gear - probably because WoW did it and Neckson was like, "We gotta be like WoW because...REASONS!!!" which only served to destroy the game further. Nevertheless, the level 100-120 helmets in this game are disastrously pathetic! I think this was done for a reason - especially when Scissors of Karma came out (which I'm VERY pleased Kimberly has no intention of putting these hellish creations into the game). The major bosses giving a godly equip is an awesome thing to have in the game, but equips like the HT Necklace are a type of equip you can't get in the game by grinding on mobs - they can only be attained by completing quests and killing bosses. So why do that with a helmet and make all other helmets completely obsolete? Any time you make something in the game obsolete, you've made a wrong move! Given this is a private server, the owner of the server can choose to correct the mistakes of Neckson if she wishes. This is only one of the mistakes Neckson made - the others, just to name a couple, include HP/MP Scrolls being too weak and the W.DEF and M.DEF stats are meaningless.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2018
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