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Weapon Attack potion/buff Discussion [onyx apple]

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by akashsky, Apr 19, 2023.

Are onyx apples currently balanced in maplelegends?

  1. Yes

    27 vote(s)
    29.3%
  2. No

    65 vote(s)
    70.7%
  1. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    This is a thread to discuss the balance of attack potions in maplelegends, with the focus being on onyx apples, a legendary attack potion that gives + 100 attack.

    Before we go into discussing onyx apples, lets review of all the commonly used attack boosting items / buff available in maplelegends.

    Commonly used attack potions / buffs

    Coke Zero Pill +15 attack (sold from npc)
    Cider +20 attack (sold from npc)
    Rage +20 attack (fighter skill party buff)
    Energizer +25 attack (quest reward / drop from neo tokyo)
    HT Buff +30 attack (buff received after killing horntail)
    PB Buff +35 attack (buff received after killing pink bean)
    Heartstopper +60 attack (item drop from voodoo / psycho jack)
    Onyx apple + 100 attack (reward from amoria party quest bonus stage)
    Gelt Chocolate +120 attack (reward from cwkpq bonus stage, untradable)
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Class damage per second and its connection to attack potions / buffs
    For attacker classes, the DPS formula typically goes something like this:
    (Total Effective Stat[Luk, Dex, Str]) times (Total attack) times (Skill Multiplier) times (Attack speed) = DPS.

    Skill multiplier and attack speed are constants defined by your class, so the only variable ones are your stats and total attack, which vary depending on your gear or level.

    What this means is that if you were to double your total attack, you would effectively double your damage. As a result, attack potions like onyx apple are incredibly effective in increasing the performance of your character.

    Lets look at the interactions with onyx apple and a few levels of NL funding. Nightlords are also one of the classes that gain the most from extra attack, so strong onyx apples shift balance in the favor of nightlords. Note that HTP / TL pendant is used over MoN because chaosing a MoN is too expensive and overall inconsistent.
    Decently geared NL:
    71 attack claw, 6 attack cape, 14 attack glove, 30 attack stars
    Total attack with Cider: 71+6+14+30+20 = 141
    Total attack with apple: 71+6+14+30+100 = 221
    % gain with apple: 221/141 = 1.56737589
    Decent NL (which already outputs decent DPM) becomes 56.7% stronger with apple.

    Well geared NL:
    76 attack claw, 10 attack cape, 15 attack glove, and 30 attack stars.
    Total attack with cider: 76+10+15+30+20= 151 attack.
    Total attack with onyx apple: 76+10+15+30+100 231.
    % gain with apple: 231 / 151 = 1.52980132.
    Well geared NL (which already outputs solid dpm) becomes 52.98% stronger with apple.

    Perfect Gear NL:
    90 attack claw, 17 attack cape, 21 attack glove, 8 attack shoes, and 31 attack stars
    Total attack with cider: 90+17+21+8+31+20 = 187
    Total attack with apple: 90+17+21+8+31+100 = 267
    % gain with apple 267/187 = 1.42780749
    Perfect gear NL (which already outputs top tier dpm) becomes 42.78% stronger with apple.


    Idea #1 Attack nerfs across all potions / buffs
    Lower the attack added by attack potions across the board to balance out the effectiveness of onyx apples.
    Coke Zero Pill +15 attack -> +10 attack
    Cider +20 attack -> +15 attack
    Rage +20 attack -> no change as heros need more meta relevance
    Energizer +25 attack -> +20 attack
    HT Buff +30 attack -> +25 attack
    PB Buff +35 attack -> +30 attack
    Heartstopper +60 attack -> +40 attack
    Onyx apple + 100 attack -> +80 attack
    Gelt Chocolate +120 attack -> + 100 attack

    This will lower the gap between all classes when using the stronger attack pots. Furthermore, if minimal changes are desired, it would also be fine to ONLY lower onyx apple to 80, and gelt to 100.

    Idea #2 Accessibility nerfs to specific potions
    Balance powerful attack potions by making it so that they are not available to be used 100% of the time with little cost. This can be done by making certain attack potions untradable.
    Untradable design
    Coke Zero Pill +15 attack -> no change
    Cider +20 attack -> no change
    Rage +20 attack -> no change
    Energizer +25 attack -> no change
    HT Buff +30 attack -> no change
    PB Buff +35 attack -> no change
    Heartstopper +60 attack -> no change
    Onyx apple + 100 attack -> untradable
    Gelt Chocolate +120 attack -> untradable

    Alternatively, it is also possible to make onyx apples "one of a kind" but tradable, similar to the ETC item used to summon papulatus.

    Idea #3 Remove certain potions from the game
    Remove onyx apple and gelt chocolate as rewards from APQ, and CWKPQ respectively, and give all existing onyx apple / gelt chocolate an expire date (like what was done for witch stews a while back). The expire date should be at least 6 months into the future. APQ and CWKPQ will also need the bonus drop table revised a bit to compensate for the nerf.

    Idea #4 No change
    It might be the case that onyx apples are a perfectly balanced item with no changes required.

    Are onyx apples currently balanced in maplelegends?
     
    • Great Work Great Work x 4
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    • Disagree Disagree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Nightz
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    Nightz Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    Whats your reasoning for nerfing things like coke pill and heartstopper harder than onyx apple % wise instead of just applying the same % att nerf across the board for idea #1?
     
  3. Zorele
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    Zorele Slimy

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    I definitely agree that onyx apples are a very problematic item and make balance changes more complicated but here's a few considerations.

    Nerfing Apples would limit the ability of some of the newer PB parties to clear the boss at all. I'm not saying this is good or bad, just stating it.

    Nerfing apples would allow for less wiggle room during a boss like PB and instead of "lowering the gap" between classes it might have the opposite effect. You'd need to optimize and nitpick even more the classes you can take to boss since there will be less damage overall. Yes, it lowers the scaling gap between classes but puts the lower damage classes in a questionable spot.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2023
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    While I'm mostly in favor of Idea #1, I don't see a need to limit Gelt effectiveness as it's already somewhat difficult to obtain and amass for general purposes. I see them more as a situational use and an extreme luxury whereas onyx apples are cheap and super accessible.

    Removing high attack pots entirely would be fun for a reserved few as it would force players to change their approach to content, but overall I think it'd have an adverse effect in exclusivity.

    You'd also need to address the problems of cutting off a source of income for the apple pickers.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. Selquin
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    Selquin Headless Horseman

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    #3 would be my pick for the best option.

    The EV of apq is so bad that APQers would be wealthier doing literally anything else
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2023
    • Agree Agree x 1
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  6. ooShawnyoo
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    ooShawnyoo Dark Stone Golem

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    I like idea #2 but I would perhaps make heartstoppers a bit more rare as 60 attack is still quite a lot and it seems like they are easy to farm. Maybe untradeable too. It would make APQ become more popular as people would have to farm apples themselves instead of just buying them.
     
  7. SaviorSword
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    SaviorSword Dark Stone Golem

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    What's the problem in the first place?
     
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  8. fartsy
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    fartsy Skelosaurus

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    finally some nerfs instead of buff me here buff me there
    #1 is nice but maybe apple and gelt should be nerfed more since the part that matters is wa above cider (in this case cider is 15 so gelt/apples are effectively 85/65 wa)

    maybe some nerfs to skills that give wa or stuff like that too
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2023
    • Agree Agree x 4
  9. Zorele
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    Zorele Slimy

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    Tldr is certain classes gain a massive advantage with the usage of attack pots compared to some others. This makes the importance of gear way less than it should be while also making some classes underwhelming and some other ones overpowered.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2023
    • Agree Agree x 2
  10. OP
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    akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    The final numbers are subject to change, but I support any decrease in attack. I chose to nerf things like cokepill and cider by 5 weapon attack to give hero rage more of a niche. A lot of people believe hero to currently be one of the worst classes in the server and I think giving their party buff rage more relevance could be a step in the right direction. The other values were chosen arbitrarily, its also fine to leave everything else as is and only nerf apple / gelt.

    If idea #1 goes in, I don't think much of a change in APQ is required. Onyx apple would still be tradable and be the best consistent option for weapon attack buff. I think people would likely still pay ~3m for it. If truly required, perhaps prestigious coins could be added to APQ bonus stage at a low rate.
     
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  11. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    This is the main reason why I prefer idea #1 over others. I think the attack ranges can be tweaked for sure, but you'd still have the issue of making things more exclusive - which isn't inherently a bad thing, but it'd feel bad to cut off a group of people from the content they're already running for the sake of balance.
     
  12. Swesticer
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    Swesticer Slime

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    A small attack nerf to apples/gelts seems most reasonable. Making apples untradeable (useless for mages to apq) or changing APQs droptable would ruin the identity off APQ completely imo. APQ/Apples is a great way for less funded players to make mesos and get into content where they otherwise wouldnt be strong enough.

    I dont really see a huge issue with how the other attack pots work atm, they all have their drawbacks when trying to get higher att ( Cider only stack 3ea, Energizer hard to farm, Heartstopper 1min ea etc.) If anything make rage 25attack to buff Hero.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2023
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  13. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

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    Something that might deserve hammering home is the concept of scaling between classes on a per weapon attack basis. For the classes that benefit the most from weapon attack, like Night Lord, Buccaneer, and Corsair, they are also hit the hardest from nerfing cider, while Paladins and other high weapon attack classes can tank the loss better.

    (assuming 40 attack between glove and cape, perfect dragon weapon, 33 att dkhan, MTKs, cider shifting 20 to 10)
    Ciders going down to 10 attack would reduce endgame Shadower DPM by 223/233, or 4.3%
    Ciders going down to 10 attack would reduce endgame Night Lord DPM by 171/181, or 5.5%

    There's a lot of argument going on about the class balance, but in mid-game the numbers are incredibly fudged due to the scaling of classes as a whole. Early on a shad will perform comparatively to a NL, but each added weapon attack will give more power to the NL, and that has to be overcompensated for by the shad to keep up the pace, but eventually it becomes impossible.

    Reducing attack pots favors the classes that have tended to be viewed as weak, as it moves back the scale to a slightly friendlier place for them. Personally I would reduce all attack pots to 50% of their original value, and reduce skill attack gain to 75%. HTB and PBB should probably be somewhere in between.
     
    • Agree Agree x 7
  14. V220
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    V220 Chronos

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    Thank you again for a detailed and tidy suggestion post, akashsky!

    Personally, the W.Attack pot situation is not balanced at all (specially onyx apple) and idea #1 seems to be the easiest solution. Why do I want this to be changed in the first place? Well, I don’t think that it is balanced for a player with a mediocre lvl50 weapon to be able to deal more damage than somebody with a perfect +7 lvl150 weapon. Consumables should give a boost of course (maybe couple of % extra to the total damage output), but it being this strong as exemplified above doesn’t seem balanced. And by balance, I mean the balance between gear attack/stats v.s. the w.attack bonus from an onyx apple.
     
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  15. Nadav1
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    Option of making them untradable and not reduce any % attack would be my pick.
    doing bosses already drain alot of time and some players tend to use apple to clear faster with less players certain bosses.
    Or some mid-tier gear that want to participate in 6man HT or duo NT or anything else and willing to apple to join or else they would never be accepted.
    Please do not reduce cider attack . everyone will just open hero mules that will take a spot its just not healthy for the community.

    edit: about the point that NL make the most DPM out of apple, yes that's how it should be why you are all surprised that a single DPM char that all he can do is Single DPM is gaining the most from attack pot . this is how it should be.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2023
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  16. V220
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    V220 Chronos

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    I don’t think that mid-gear tier player joining 6man HT or duo NT should be the norm/feasible. Where one draws the line of content difficulty is pretty subjective, but given that for example HT is endgame and very relevant due to MW20, and it is supposed to be cleared with even more than 1 party, I don’t think that it should be doable as said above. And of course mid-gear tier can also join 12man so it is not even like they cannot join HT runs at all.

    Also, if you are looking to speed things up using apples on bosses, making them untradeable is counterproductive. It will take way longer to get them through APQ than the time saved on the boss fight.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2023
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  17. Nadav1
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    Nadav1 King Slime

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    that might be true if you will use one client to APQ and do nothing else in the meantime . which is probably never the case most players will leech/farm with other clients or w/e in that time cause APQ is that EASY.
    and if apples will be untradeable there will need to be some changes for example - number of entries a day and drop rate
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2023
  18. CauTion
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    CauTion Chronos

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    a mid tier could with att pots and pay the price for doing more dmg ..
    not everyone in that game can invest 3 hours for "endgame boss" or 9 hours a day leeching for gear .
    I think if I need to choose ill pick untradeable apples ,that will take a lot of the early game funds but the other ideas leme think of end game chars controlling the PB market\runs


    have to know how you got to that conclusion
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2023
    • Agree Agree x 1
  19. V220
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    V220 Chronos

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    How long does a 12man HT take? Or even a 18man run? I am pretty sure it ain’t 3 hours. Again, it is not like mid-tier geared players cannot do the content. All I‘m saying is there has to be a balance between how easy/hard/time consuming endgame content should be and, in my opinion, 6man HT run with mid-gear tier player is already „too easy“.

    And what do you mean with „have to know how you got to than conclusion“?
     
  20. Tommygunner
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    Tommygunner Mixed Golem

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    You make some good points V2. 12-10 man HT often takes 3 hours for 2 runs for most of my runs across 5 groups. Also I've yet to ever seen a 18 man HT run.
     
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