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Balance Pink Bean Statue stages

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by akashsky, Jul 27, 2021.

  1. akashsky
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    akashsky Zakum

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    If you take a look at pink bean, the statue stage essentially makes melee attackers second rate, unviable classes at the expedition.

    If you take a look at the PB dpm flex thread,
    https://forum.maplelegends.com/index.php?threads/pb-dpm-flex-thread.41739/

    Melee attackers (buccaneers somewhat excluded) have around HALF of the effective dpm of range attackers in the statue portion of pink bean.

    The reason the gap is this large is because of the bird statues. Range attackers can attack the birds without the birds attacking back or casting any skills.

    Range attackers should not be able to cheese the bird statues like this, and people have been banned in the past for abusing glitches that allowed them to do something similar to other bosses.

    Meanwhile, if melee attackers attempt to attack the bird statues, they attack back and cast their punishing debuffs (damage reflect / seduce). The range attackers being able to cheese the statues and prevent the debuffs is so beneficial that a melee attacker CONTRIBUTES MORE BY NOT ATTACKING against these specific statues and instead doing nothing.

    My suggestions to fix this:

    Make it so range attackers cannot cheese the bird statues.
    Give the bird statues global range, or at least make the aggression range large enough such that the birds still attacks back and cast skills if they are getting hit by range attackers.

    Rework the right birds seduce and make it work like horntail.
    Instead of constantly spamming mass seduce, rework the seduce on the right side bird to be a single seduce that targets the first person to enter the map (just like horntail). When the bird gets low on HP, then the bird can start casting mass seduce (which should affect the first 10 people to enter the map, like horntail).

    The result here is that range attackers get a nerf on the statue stage (no longer able to AGGRO ABUSE the bird statues) while melee attackers get a buff because NOT ATTACKING is no longer the best option. The expedition becomes more balanced overall instead of favoring range attackers to a ridiculous degree.
     
    • Agree Agree x 26
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Huiae
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    Huiae Headless Horseman

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    I'd say, problem is, whether staff team see this as 'range players cowarding on bird statues' as 'tactics because it was same in pre-BB original MS' or, 'thing should be fixed so be balanced between melee/ranges'.

    PB is good example of extremely unbalanced boss between melee/range players. just remember before ariel hitbox change what melee players did on that statue. neckson indeed.

    To be balanced or to be authentic, is the question.
     
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  3. Selquin
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    Selquin Nightshadow

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    As we have seen from the changes in horntail from 2019 onwards, restoring mechanics to their GMS authenticity flying the the flag of "bug fixes" often results in atrocious balancing mistakes. The balance team members at the time even pointed out the catastrophic consequences of the HT changes back in the day, but were swiftly shut down in the name of "bug fix". Please do not make the same mistake for PB.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. Nightz777
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    Nightz777 Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    It should always be balance over authenticity
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  5. Soblet
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    Soblet Skelegon

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    This would make PB runs significantly harder right? Either way sounds like a good change.
     
  6. kalash
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    kalash Headless Horseman

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    I very much second this suggestion. It always feels iffy to bring hero’s to pb since they simply do less dmg on a single target, which is all you can do in pb. This change would make it a necessity to have a few sed-absorbing classes on the run.

    I’m not saying that hero’s have no place in the current pb, as godly geared hero’s still out-dmg scrubby NLs. I’m just saying that if everyone has perfected gear at some point, warriors will most likely be phased out of pb
     
  7. Magen
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    Magen Selkie Jr.

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    can I agree more than once?


     
  8. iPippy
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    iPippy Windraider

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    If talking about classes best for absorbing seds, both shads and washed NLs (both of which already have a place on bean runs) are significantly tankier than hero/pally as the latter is capped at 30k hp.

    I think if the goal was to declare inentional bird Freezing aggro abuse (really not sure why it isnt), it is currently impossible at this point in time. I actually think Phase 4 is doable this way as you can effectively save the Right Bird for last where seds are much less dangerous. But due to the aggro range of the bird, Ariel becomes impossible to fight without dealing with seds and Ariel's attacks.

    Imo a non-bird freeze run should be doable if:
    1. Right Bird's aggro range is reduced to the right half of the map (not including ariel, or at least allowing range to safely reach ariel)
    2. Obvious Aggro Abuse is declared Aggro Abuse.

    Of course, any changes would only serve to make the run more challenging and statues take longer, which means more dpm required, so the situation likely wouldnt change for non-support melee classes. Right Bird is fire weak though, so that might be something.:pinkbean:
     
  9. xiaoyaoz
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    xiaoyaoz Balance Team Staff Member Balance Team

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    Following ipippy suggestion, new aggro range would be something like this?
    [​IMG]
    I will assume the strategy for this will go something like this.
    Everyone start on the left, once left man down, range hit Ariel, melee hit left bird, once Ariel and left bird down, everyone kill right man, then finally right bird? (or kill right man at the very start then follow the sequence)
    Something to note is, melee attackers can't attack Ariel and buccs/Shads can't barrage/nate right man if we want to prevent mass seduce.

    Another issue we gotta deal with is the ?? number of mass seduce available from right bird.
    AFAIK, there are at least 4 independent mass seduces from right bird, and each of them affects more than 5 people with very long duration.
    Even if we have a bishop in each party, it's unlikely to capture all the mass seduce in 1 holy shield.

    So, there has to be changes to mass seduce from right bird as well in order to get this to work.
    I this akash idea on reworking seduce will make things quite doable.
    When there are 25 attackers on apple hitting right bird, it will take less than 2 minute to kill it.
    Make it so that seduce only affect the first people when 100% HP, then mass seduce (random among 30 ppl) when below 30% HP.
    I'm not in favor of only mass seducing the first 10 people or so as it will just makes things too easy for the remaining 20 people.
    The duration of holy shield should safely help attackers finish right bird without much worry.
    Melee attackers will then still be able to attack all other statues when no to little damage is done on right bird.
    Only issue is, people will not have much time to get into position when PB is spawned since right bird is the last to get killed.

    I wonder if there is other more creative suggestion to make things doable without affecting too much stuff?
     
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  10. OP
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    akashsky
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    akashsky Zakum

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    I have no idea on what the cooldown is for the bird statue, but I find it hard to justify that a random mass seduce mechanic is fair to the moderately washed, low avoid range classes. A single jumping mass seduce towards the bird statue will be most likely result in death.

    Holy shield only lasts 40 seconds, and note that there are potentially 4 different seduces (right, left, jump right, jump left) that lasts for ~30 seconds. I don't think it is possible to kill the bird in the span of 40 seconds (hero's will here isn't too effective since if you will one of the 4 seduce, you will probably get nailed by one of the other ones)

    I think that we all agree that bird seduce in its current form makes the expedition unclearable without some kind of cheese, so if there is some kind of change made I would like to see something that doesn't overtly punish one group of players (those who can't tank the statue / have low avoid) over the others.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  11. xiaoyaoz
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    xiaoyaoz Balance Team Staff Member Balance Team

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    40 seconds to kill 30% HP of right bird is plenty. If a squad can kill left man statue in 1min, that's 300m dpm. Bird HP is 450m, means it should take about 1.5min to kill. 30% of that is 27seconds which gives 13seconds to react for shield. If you are lucky, within that 27seconds right bird might not even cast mass sed at all. The point is to keep bishop relevant and also somewhat requiring skill since you now need to judge when it will be <30% HP and not just shield whenever (shouldn't be too hard if right bird is the last one standing). 5 bishops will be preferred but not necessary. If you want to have less than 5 bishop in a squad, optimisation will then required to place bishops in the desired party. Lets say you only got 3 bishops, and unfortunately the remaining 12 attackers in the other party get seduced, the remaining attackers will now instead take 1.1minute to kill right bird. Definitely a risk and reward kind of stuff but I feel like it will make things interesting?

    Also, I think when right bird is the last statue standing, you don't have to hero's will unless you're gonna touch bird statue? The only issue is the ass-long seduce, which I hope they decrease it to 10seconds or so, 30 seconds seduce is just way too long. If you're the only one getting seduced, the squad might have done killing bird before your seduce is over.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  12. iPippy
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    iPippy Windraider

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    The more I think about this, the more I think it could be possible, though there is certainly no reason to even attempt to do so right now both in terms of dpm/time and in terms of risk associated. Strategies would likely revolve around having 5 bishops (which most squads already do), but instead using full squad shields to hit-and-run the right bird, retreating back left (or even right) before the shield runs out. Of course, the biggest impediments to such a plan would be dispels. Ariel dispel wont be an issue if she isnt attacked (which is not even feasible with current aggro ranges). I think Rex may have a % hp threshold before dispelling as well, though I'm unsure on that.

    Theres still a fair amount of strategization as well in how to approach shield downtimes. Split the squad to remove Rex and come back in a couple minutes to nuke again, or have a bucc tl all 5 shields and go again right away? Itd also possibly bridge some of the gap between classes, although mobility will still provide an edge. The right bird priority target is fire weak, so paladins could see good use there as well.

    Of course, a noticeable issue with such a strategy is an over-reliance on bishops/shields. In case of DC, a squad would likely need some form of a contingency plan. Perhaps a party that is likely to still survive without shields especially as other statues are eliminated, or a party that can rope/chair and hide in smoke, or a spare bishop or simply just accept some potential deaths? None ideal, but emergency measures nonetheless.

    In all, while potential for time loss is higher and runs would be riskier, I think there is still room for strategic planning around not aggro abusing the statues. It's obviously inferior to aggro abuse, so there is currently no reason to explore other avenues while it is allowed.
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
  13. wanpi12456
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    wanpi12456 Timer

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    Low avoid ability makes warriors suffer from consistent stun. And that leads to significantly lower dpm during statue.
    How about make stun time shorter so warrior can get a better life during statue?
     
  14. OP
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    akashsky
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    akashsky Zakum

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    Your class is essentially unviable at pink bean due to legalized aggro abuse, and rather than have that fixed you would prefer to have the duration of a stun (that you can DODGE by taking touch damage from a statue or ducking under a platform) reduced?
     
    • Informative Informative x 4
  15. Magen
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    Magen Selkie Jr.

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    I think no warrior class is viable for pink bean in it's current state.. (please if u invite DK for HB that's not make it viable..)

    great suggestion Akash <3 I wish it'll implemented to warriors can do damage in PB
     

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