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Gach hoarders are ruining your ws prices!

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by mjk, Nov 25, 2021.

  1. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    The point being - Staff has already acknowledged that hoarding ws/cs/end game items is affecting overall economy, so there's no reason to bring it up again. OP's point is that another aspect that should be considered is the overall production of the ws/cs of which is definitely affected by the new culture of hoarding gach, facilitated by stackable tickets.

    People who are whatabouting by saying people could just hoard their items instead are dismissing the bigger picture which can be easily conveyed via Akash's diagram above.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Informative Informative x 1
  2. zeroxlr
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    zeroxlr Windraider

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    I agree with akash’s diagram above.

    I also agree with gacha being tied with WS/CS production, and how gacha hoarding hurts it.

    Although its best not to dismiss and assume market inflation of other gacha items to solely be caused by gacha hoarding directly.

    Since expiry/low stack/less ticket drop rates could inflate the market too… if there’s only punitive measures without positive ones.

    So on one hand yes, fix hoarding issue of gacha for WS/CS reasons… but with positive incentives or a trade-off method, to not hurt the other gacha item rates.

    A trade-off method would be:
    Pre/System-rolling gacha tickets and having mobs drop the gacha items instead. Could be an effective way to keep gacha items in the market, while at the same time to implement expiry/low stacks/less ticket drops.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  3. zeroxlr
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    zeroxlr Windraider

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    for example:

    If there’s expiry on gacha: people could forget and thus less items generated.

    If there’s less gacha drop rate: less items generated

    If there’s low gacha stacks: more gacha item storage mules (but good! since more items generated and or put into market)

    Everyone knows that WS/CS generated is tied with gacha.
    • gacha hoarding affects WS/CS, this is true
    But to say that gacha hoarding affects certain gacha item inflation is more of an assumption of causation, since that’s based on drop rates/sales of those items and or if there are people who hoard those too.

    Maybe there could be a better way to come up with a way to resolve gacha hoarding with trade-offs rather than punitive measures, it’d be better than a black or white view of punishment only.
     
  4. Nightz
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    Nightz Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    So you agree with this:
    Yet keep defending your statement of keeping gacha at is with things like

    Which is also an assumption, and I think it's kinda undeniable that all the gacha locked scrolls are the ones having the hardest times in the market while the rest can be farmed in some other way and seem to stay much more stable overall.

    After everything stated in this thread I don't understand why it's such a big deal to people if gachapon would actually expire. Seeing arguments of people saying they don't want to gacha because they don't want to deal with so much shit in their inventories are actual pepegas. You only don't want to deal with it because you are hoarding gachapon like a madman, if you use your gacha every day or even every week this is very much a non issue and takes like 5 seconds to sort out what is worth selling
     
  5. Mageor
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    Mageor Mr. Anchor

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    First of all, just want to thank everyone for contributing to this discussion, I think with more discussions it will help everyone understand the market and how we can all help to make MapleLegends a healthier place.

    I would like to start with I agree with the OP and others who like his solution. More gacha used will = more items introduced into the game. If everyone were to unload all their gacha tickets once they receive it, it will 1000% create more flow of gacha-gated items into the market. And this will definitely boost the short term supply of the market.

    I would also like everyone to take a second and think, will more supply solve our issue with inflating prices?

    First, Let's define what an item flowing in and flowing out of the game mean?
    Flowing in = Obtaining such gacha-locked item from Gacha (i.e. WS, CS, PGC, Sky Ski, etc)
    Flowing out = such gacha-locked item is used for its intended purpose (Scrolling mostly I think) and causing demand to be satisfied

    Lets say with the new implementation, a new WS has been obtained, there are three choices the owner of such precious commodity can take.
    1. Use it for themselves
    2. Sell it to obtain mesos/items for other needs
    3. Keep it (purpose does not matter)
    To summarize how this item switches hands, I provided a simple tree diagram for visual purposes. From what I believe, in the end, the WS or any such gacha-gated item will fall into either one of two categories, item used or item not used. From what we hear from our amazing staff, I think it's safe to assume that a percentage of items (big or small) obtained from gacha has not been used for its original purposes when created by its designers, creating more end-game items.

    Now I believe these are the real questions that has to be answered:
    1. What happened to most of the end game items obtained from gacha? Were they used for their intended purpose? Or are they kept for other reasons such as future use or circumventing the 2b max mesos problem?
    2. Does keeping a certain commodity for long periods of time affect our market?
    3. How much more supply will have to be generated to create a healthy balance for the player base in the long run, whether they use them immediately or keep it for future use?
     
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  6. Eldric
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    Eldric Slime

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    From what I read (and continue correcting me if I'm small-brained and not comprehending this), most people here argue that hoarding gacha hurts the economy thru higher prices for gacha-locked items, WS/CS in particular. Like you mentioned, it is correlation, not causation. The logical chain you propose seems to go as follows :

    Gach Hoarding -> lower production of WS/CS -> lower supply of WS/CS -> higher prices in general (again, please add to this if I'm wrong)

    My issue with your argument is two-fold, in the first and second chain of events.

    Firstly, let us assume there is some megalomaniac out there hoarding 1k+ tickets for whatever reason, dominating all other players. Unless he is insane, he eventually wants to unload this when WS/CS prices are high, which they are right now. This means we should see some kind of price correction downwards sometimes when some people decide to do so. Yet we don't see (much) downward trend at all in prices, except when the GMs release some kind of news of changes in rates or Prestigious coins or events.

    The second chain bothers me too because what makes you think that these gach hoarders will not simply transition into WS/CS hoarders when you force them to produce WS/CS? An analogy is : you force a factory to produce 1 million WS/CS but do not give them incentive to sell it. If they were hoarding tickets before, they will simply hoard WS/CS in respond to your changes.

    Staff will never provide the data on gach tickets or the rates at which people use/buy/sell them BUT even with that data, there could be other reasons why prices are rising (which I feel are far more important and crucial than gach hoarding). I know people mention demand/supply (econ 101) and yes I agree 100% that is relevant here. Demand side : We have far more players than EVER in the economy. We have players who optimise optimise optimise their meso per hour and spend more time than ever earning as much as they can in any way possible. I don't have the numbers but I am pretty sure there are more players reaching higher levels and pursuing perfect items (more so, with the update of timeless items and so on). I am not saying that what these players are doing is wrong, it is perfectly natural in the life cycle once players have stayed long enough. So, with all these factors in mind, is it really surprising that WS prices have reached all time highs and may continue rising in the foreseeable future? Again, correlation not causation. I still think that gach hoarding is the least of your problems when it comes to inflation.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
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  7. zeroxlr
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    zeroxlr Windraider

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    Of course. Maybe just how I write is confusing?
    1. WS/CS issue
    2. Gacha exclusive item inflation or low supply
    Both these are pretty hard hit. I do agree.

    What to fix:
    1. WS/CS that are locked in gacha to flow. <— this i agree

    2. Since there’s less focus on the other gacha exclusive equips/scrolls, maybe the fix is good or maybe not. There could be people who are also actively hoarding those items too, or using them up right away. Not exactly the same as WS/CS usages. <— this, i request a closer look before i agree
    How to fix:
    • Not sure tbh… maybe trade-offs rather than punitive could be implemented
    Since everyone has their own circumstances…
    • not everyone is a seasoned FM player with Owl Mule/FM tools
    • not everyone has the time to gacha or FM daily/weekly.
    • maybe they just love collecting, not for malicious reasons.

    Maybe I’m misunderstanding?
    • How much gacha stacking = hoarding?
    • Is 100 total gacha in inventory bad?
    • Or is +500 tota gacha in inventory bad?
     
  8. xiaoyaoz
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    xiaoyaoz Balance Team Staff Member Balance Team

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    Maybe Venn diagram and flow chart are not enough.

    Let me try this naive and stupid illustration with stick figures, it probably is an oversimplification but maybe some people can understand it better?
    or maybe I just like to think it in a dumb way :p
    upload_2021-12-1_4-46-43.png

    Guess what happen when people wait for prices to be "normal" again? :roflmao:
     
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  9. zeroxlr
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    zeroxlr Windraider

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    You’re welcome, for laughing at my expense.

    9665B6CA-C434-4B88-807C-917BF6BA44EB.png

    754BD6D4-1223-432E-B0B5-5395C5DFC781.png


    Accurate meme though, ngl.

    I’d like to point out that I only have 15-20m mesos total in all my accounts combined so… there’s that too to add for your meme.

    I do like how most people are good at providing critical insights on the topic.

    I’m also glad that I can learn and see new perspectives rather than a singular view points.

    I do notice some people get rather bitter and start mocking and harassing others just because they know may more about the game.

    This isn’t good if some of the vocal endgame community in ML becomes toxic, and attempt to push out people who’ve only been playing for a few months to 1 year.

    …Simply just to change a person’s opinion.
     
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  10. Oradious
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    Oradious Capt. Latanica

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    Not all new players, just those who are absolutely clueless or type with their feet
     
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  11. Jonnemanni
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    Jonnemanni Red Snail

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    Still rather toxic innit? Seems so to me.
     
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  12. Oradious
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    Oradious Capt. Latanica

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    First time?
     
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  13. Precel
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    Precel Zakum Retired Staff

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    !gacha command to bring up gachapon npc anywhere

    It's an overly simplistic approach: make it easy for people to burn gacha = they burn gacha more. Though it may not even be that convenient to encourage people to use gachapon... But it has no effect on balancing and some people may find it useful. This would be a change with no apparent harm so I figure why not!

    Perhaps allow using multiple gachapons at once along with this change to have the maximum QoL.
     
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  14. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    The problem isn't gachapon accessibility. It's the junk that inundates your inventory space whenever you decide to gach.

    A couple of other factors that could be incentivizing this behavior:
    • The feeling of a higher rate of success by pooling all your gach together - with yellow text as an indicator of success and the reason people go to gach. Having a series of empty/useless gach runs is a far shittier feeling than one large gacha run that yields nothing. On the contrary, it seems like there tends to be more yellow text pulls on those larger gach runs, so people continue to feed into that train of thought.
    • The feeling of having to sell all the junk that you obtain from gach is a huge deterrent. I'm pretty sure anybody that hoards gach also hoards/stashes all the useless junk scrolls they get. It becomes more efficient to gach en masse and then mule all your junk at once rather than to do it periodically in smaller chunks. The time it takes to log onto your mules is time wasted, so doing it less frequently is more efficient.

    If gach dropped less frequently but ultimately yielded a higher EV as a result, I'm sure people wouldn't hoard as much.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  15. Precel
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    Precel Zakum Retired Staff

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    I agree - my point isn't to say that the accessibility is an issue, but rather to incorporate the UI/UX principle where designers try to reduce the number of clicks to get to important functions. 1 click to do something vs. 2 clicks to something may sound miniscule but has a big impact on user experience. Hence why I suggest to reduce the barrier to gacha.

    You bring up a good point about inventory management. I have a few ideas to combat this, although I'm not sure if they're possible.

    1) if "using multiple gachas" gets implemented - at the end of the multiple gachas, bring up a dialogue with the pulled items and let the player select items that they want to keep. Rest gets sold automatically at NPC price.

    Pros:
    - easy to discard junks without shuffling through inventory
    - should also be quicker as it would be faster to pick useful items than throwing away abundant amount of junks

    Possible issues:
    - Prone to player mistakes. Some people may lose items by closing the dialogue without selecting their desired item. (Even with confirmation before closing dialogue)
    - Will be a long dialogue if someone gachas a lot at once.

    2) add an option to send pulled items via duey instead of inventory

    Pros:
    - no need to worry about inventory
    - especially if !gacha gets implemented

    Possible issues:
    - may be more annoying than the current process for players to retrieve items from duey / adds a "click" from the current gacha process

    3) add an NPC that works similar to the FM npc. Have 4 options - retrieve an item, discard an item, retrieve all, discard all. All gacha pulls go straight to him. Charge fees if an item gets held for too long.

    Pros:
    - combination of #1 and #2, meaning that it would be easier to select desired items and less inventory management.
    - optionally, this NPC can also eliminate gacha tickets from inventory altogether. Automatically roll gacha when you pick up the ticket instead.
    - yay meso sink (via fees) / discourages hoarding

    Possible issues:
    - automatically rolling gacha is also a con as some people enjoy opening gacha themselves
    - would be very very hard to implement imo even if it's purely dialogue based
    - still accident prone

    Also with these ideas, I'd be concerned about potential bugs that may lead to duping.
     
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  16. ThiagoPool
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    ThiagoPool Red Snail

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    Gach hoarders are NOT ruining ws prices. Your assumption is that the supply of ws is constrained due to players not redeeming their gach but that is not true at all. In fact this is very misleading and straying from the actual issue.

    90%+ of all ws is being held onto and not being used, there are over 500 ws in the server as of October, likely more at this point. The supply was never the issue, it’s the sole fact they are used to avoid tax and speculation towards higher prices in the future.

    Have you all noticed how the supply of cs and ws increased during the anniversary and summer event? How frequently people would win them compared to now? Because you could get them through gach AND event raffle? Did you all also notice how the prices still went up even though the supply increased dramatically? Isn’t it obvious the supply is not the issue…?

    Gach hoarders are not to blame for any of this. Not to mention the vast majority of players gach as soon as they can.

    Do not let this distract you from the fact that we need a ws merchant and some form of incentives for bossing to be more profitable.

    This server grows closer to farmstory than maplestory each day. An entire looting mechanism was removed when ws was 170m, why do something so drastic then and ignore what is happening when they are 240m….?
     
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  17. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Honestly I don't think it's a UI issue at all. There's a definitive bias towards hoarding with little to no reason to gach frequently and many more reasons to hoard instead. Like OP mentioned, this became an issue because of the stacking change that allowed for people to hoard an absurd amount of gach. In the past, you were limited by inventory space on gach tickets. Now, you can hoard until you hit a self-imposed benchmark before you go on a gaching spree. The final result won't necessarily bring any difference, but you'll save time with having to mule, and you'll have a large chunk of duplicate items that you can sell in a shop together. It's just way more efficient to hoard and gach.

    Sure, UI tricks might work on the general population, but I don't think it will do anything to change the behavior of those who tend to have access to the most gach anyways.

    The main issue is that while most people would prefer to have stackable gach, this change in behavior is indirectly affecting the flow of supply, especially since the main ways to procure some of these items is through gach itself. Going without a Halloween event is has been a strain to overall WS/CS supply. The CWK exchange seems to be slowing down now that rates have been basically solved and deemed suboptimal. We're in need of new ways to generate these RNG-gated items.
     
  18. MrPresident
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    MrPresident Capt. Latanica

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    Let me sell gach tickets in fm store so somebody else can deal with the fat sausage
     
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  19. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    I think making gach tradable would solve a lot of these problems. The hoarders don't want to gach because its too inconvenient. Well, perhaps it would be better if they could sell it to someone who cares to use them?
     
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