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Long awaited post- GET RID OF CANCEL WA/MA

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by bienfu, Dec 7, 2023.

What should we do with WA

This poll will close on Nov 21, 2024 at 9:05 PM.
  1. Leave it be, it is perfectly fine, it is impeccable design

    19.7%
  2. Give options to dispel (i.e. DK/Crusader/WK power,armor,magic crash, etc) or reduce duration

    47.0%
  3. Buff mages to be strong enough attackers to warrant bringing them into bossruns (KEKW)

    13.6%
  4. Get rid of it completely

    18.2%
  5. Get rid of it completely and buff boss HP

    16.7%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. bienfu
    Offline

    bienfu Pac Pinky

    180
    30
    181
    Aug 14, 2022
    Male
    8:50 PM
    secondpink
    Beginner
    I'm 100% certain that at least 95% if not 96.9% of the playerbase finds cancel WA/MA on bosses to be utterly annoying, pointless, and out of anyone's control.

    It is an incredibly BINARY system dictated by RNG. Zakum or Scarlion or whatever just randomly decide to cancel WA and you can do NOTHING about it. I think the whole reason why NexCon had this feature in the first place was because they expected parties to be mixed weapon and magic damage, but let's be real, 99% of bossruns dont come in with a mage expected to do much damage.

    Not only this system completely and utterly bullshit, it's actually biased in favor more towards stronger attacking parties. Bosses die faster, less chance of them throwing out their bullshit cancel WA/MA. Bosses die slower, then weaker parties are extra cucked eating even more cancel WA/MA.

    So, getting rid of it, and even just the staff just want to buff boss HP to compensate (which I would not do), it would at least make the results relatively more equitable betweeen stronger and weaker parties.

    I have listed a number of poll options that can address this issue.

    Please, Maplelegends staff, after FINALLY getting rid of the 2 sign requirement for CWKPQ, there is hope you can do what should be clearly obvious for the good of this server and get rid of this mechanic that exists only to be ANTI-FUN.
     
    • Agree x 2
    • Disagree x 2
    • Like x 1
    • Friendly x 1
    • Creative x 1
  2. beegoratto
    Offline

    beegoratto Zakum

    1,447
    420
    455
    Sep 22, 2021
    Male
    8:50 PM
    leetoratto
    Bowmaster
    1
    Nimbus
    FWIW WC/MC is precisely what makes HT so interesting.

    Outside of that fight I think there's very few arguments for it but I think removing it from HT main body would be a huge loss for player skill expression.
     
    • Agree Agree x 15
  3. HarleyEllis
    Offline

    HarleyEllis Pac Pinky

    188
    60
    191
    Jan 3, 2021
    Female
    Philadelphia
    11:50 PM
    Harlez
    I/L Wizard, Shadower, Brawler, Corsair
    200
    Replace them all with their respective reflects for less duration!
     
    • Great Work Great Work x 3
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Creative Creative x 1
  4. Krythan
    Online

    Krythan Skelegon

    947
    258
    403
    Sep 2, 2022
    11:50 PM
    Krythan
    Bishop
    176
    Reset
    I would LOVE to see adding/updating class abilities such that there's a strategy in dispelling these effects. Imagine if certain warrior classes could break down a weapon cancel, or dealing X amount of magic damage would dispel a weapon cancel. It could be a very interesting way of giving under-appreciated classes their own unique spot in the meta (and thus, a spot in raiding parties), without having to change their damage or otherwise balance their class abilities.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  5. beegoratto
    Offline

    beegoratto Zakum

    1,447
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    455
    Sep 22, 2021
    Male
    8:50 PM
    leetoratto
    Bowmaster
    1
    Nimbus
    The biggest concern with changes like this is turning the class into something that's mule-able. Not that I'm saying there aren't ways of addressing this, but I have my doubts seeing as how the change directed at Bucc TL muling (energy charge) only further incentivized muling Buccs (and still hasn't been reverted).
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. Krythan
    Online

    Krythan Skelegon

    947
    258
    403
    Sep 2, 2022
    11:50 PM
    Krythan
    Bishop
    176
    Reset
  7. LeonardoJF
    Offline

    LeonardoJF Horntail

    2,339
    429
    490
    Jun 16, 2021
    Male
    Rio grande do Sul - BR
    12:50 AM
    ItzLeo
    Paladin
    200
    Favela
    one thing I thought about would be if there was a way to let the weapon/magic cancel not block all the hits, let about 10-30% of hits pass, or increase the def/mdef a lot to the point of reducing 70-90% of the dmg
     
  8. LeonardoJF
    Offline

    LeonardoJF Horntail

    2,339
    429
    490
    Jun 16, 2021
    Male
    Rio grande do Sul - BR
    12:50 AM
    ItzLeo
    Paladin
    200
    Favela
    on other servers there are skills that pass and that's exactly what blen said: they turn into mules
     
  9. fartsy
    Offline

    fartsy Zakum

    1,456
    1,005
    491
    Jun 29, 2017
    Male
    10:50 PM
    Fartsy
    F/P Mage
    Pasta
    buccs would laugh all the way to the next balance change
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  10. LeonardoJF
    Offline

    LeonardoJF Horntail

    2,339
    429
    490
    Jun 16, 2021
    Male
    Rio grande do Sul - BR
    12:50 AM
    ItzLeo
    Paladin
    200
    Favela
    oh lol, I forgot this detail that would have to be balanced too kekw,

    focus on not blocking all hits
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2023
  11. Tarnished
    Offline

    Tarnished Selkie Jr.

    217
    109
    210
    Jun 13, 2022
    Male
    8:50 PM
    Confessor, Tarnished, Hawthorn
    Hero
    200
    I'm speculating here, but WC is a balancing mechanic that lowers the EV of single target attackers. If a boss WCs 50% of the time, then your gear/class advantage is only 50% as powerful. Otherwise strong attackers would just nuke the content twice as fast as plebs and make twice the money.

    I would agree though that WC is almost always a pretty lazy design, HT might be the coolest application of it. There are way more interesting ways to cut down EV that are at least somewhat influenced by player actions, the entire section leading up to the boss fight in CWKPQ is a good example. It's mostly a time sink but because players have agency over it, it's more engaging.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2023
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  12. iPippy
    Online

    iPippy Nightshadow

    697
    371
    345
    May 19, 2019
    Male
    11:50 PM
    iPippy
    Im not following how we claim that weapon cancel either favors strong attackers or balances strong attackers. For a given ratio of uptime (rng not withstanding), a squad that could clear 30% faster than another with 0 cancels will also clear 30% faster for any value of uptime.

    Unless there's a way to directly alter a monster's average uptime, or a way to line up high impact attacks with cancels ending (like shad), then weapon cancels will amplify run time proportionally, regardless of strength.

    Cancels with nothing to do during the downtime but rebuff and check on our "cornians on the side" client(s) are still unfun design tho, and is why HT seemingly gets the only pass.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Subterlabor
    Offline

    Subterlabor Skelegon

    960
    180
    403
    Mar 13, 2023
    9:50 PM
    SweatLord
    Bowmaster
    185
    Toilet
    LOL oh god
     
  14. Subterlabor
    Offline

    Subterlabor Skelegon

    960
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    403
    Mar 13, 2023
    9:50 PM
    SweatLord
    Bowmaster
    185
    Toilet
    I tossed around this idea with Zak to make it more engaging instead of afk as hell. Remove wc, add sed? Dispel? Reflect would be a bit much considering its a entry level boss. Would make player skill/active bishops much more viable and less muled.
     
  15. Tarnished
    Offline

    Tarnished Selkie Jr.

    217
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    Jun 13, 2022
    Male
    8:50 PM
    Confessor, Tarnished, Hawthorn
    Hero
    200
    Yeah wait nevermind you're right, doing twice the damage will clear twice as fast regardless of WC. I probably formed the misconception from people not wanting to Apple on a boss with frequent WC but in hindsight it's because apple only lasts 10 minutes. So I guess there's not really a gear balancing aspect to WC
     
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  16. Thuglifer
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    Thuglifer Capt. Latanica

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    Sep 1, 2021
    Male
    11:50 AM
    Beginner
    The only time i find this somewhat true, is during Preheads. But I'd much rather see a HP reduction on preheads than WC since It's still part of the boss design mechanics. Almost similar to ToT's mini-bosses different teaching mechanics leading up to the big fight, tho some could argue why these mini-bosses don't use the same animation IF the goal here was to teach.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. HimeHam
    Offline

    HimeHam Pac Pinky

    177
    31
    186
    Mar 22, 2020
    Female
    9:50 PM
    Corsair
    I made a post about this a while back suggesting to change it from 99.99% damage mitigation to 75%.
    People were relatively split about the idea. I'm still in favor of it, but it would be hard to make any changes when people have such differing opinions about it.
    upload_2023-12-9_15-43-16.png
     
  18. -ovv
    Offline

    -ovv Horntail

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    Feb 23, 2020
    Male
    8:50 PM
    -ovv
    Beginner
    200
    Honor
    Just to offer a counter perspective, one thing people might be taking for granted are the pockets of opportunity or rest that cancels provide. I'm not arguing that it's a good design, but I don't think people understand how much more draining a long, unengaging fight is.

    I noticed this first when I felt significantly more drained by Toad than 2 full runs of Zakum. Toad doesn't have any fight mechanics - it's just 45+ minutes of pure braindead content - yet for some reason, it felt unbearably more draining because there's absolutely nothing to look out for. At least in Zakum, you're constantly looking for cues that trigger a series of actions or force you to make decisions in order to maximize windows of opportunity and improve. IMO, that's what makes the fight more engaging as a whole and I haven't gotten bored of it. I tapped out of my Toad after only 25 runs, whereas I have over 900 runs recorded for Zakum.

    Cancels aren't the most fun, but at least it does SOMETHING to keep you engaged - whether it's rebuffing, going to kill mobs, or just resting and chatting with your buddies.
    If cancels do get redesigned, I think there should be some sort of counterplay involved. Completely removing it would just make fights more draining, imo.

    My thought was perhaps implementing a cancel piercing mechanic in certain 2nd and 3rd job skills. It would provide staff with a huge new lever to rebalance some underrepresented classes in different bosses.
     
    • Like Like x 6
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
  19. beegoratto
    Offline

    beegoratto Zakum

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    8:50 PM
    leetoratto
    Bowmaster
    1
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    I think this speaks less towards the pros of Cancels and more on how mind-numbingly long Toad is
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Like Like x 1
  20. -ovv
    Offline

    -ovv Horntail

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    -ovv
    Beginner
    200
    Honor
    Sure, but it made me appreciate weapon cancels a bit more.

    Edit: Also, my Toad run times were about the same length as 2x Zakum runs, so length of time is less relevant here.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2023
    • Like Like x 1

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