Shads have mediocre damage and utility. We need more love.

Gurk is right though. A change to their damage formula to allow for a larger impact from SE could be a fair ask. Giving shads a slight bump to allow for top-end Shads to hit 6-figure assassinate lines consistently would be a good way to incentivize more fully-geared shad mains rather than shad beginners/mules.

 

we corsairs welcome our shadower overlords

smoke is probably the only buff in the game where redundancy increases party DPM. Having multiple SE or SI is the same as having one SE or SI, but the additive effect of multiple smokes is great. it’s also the only party buff that will increase a bowmaster’s DPM. I’ll try testing out the effect of one smoke on a dpm45, but my guess is that it adds about 200-500k to my dpm45 (for corsairs though; less effect on bowmen and almost no effect on NLs due to superior avoid). I think this makes it a better buff than SI for corsairs, but I’m not totally sure because I don’t get the luxury of SI very often.

my core 6 man horntail squad has two shadowers, and the effect of having two smokes is incredible for our ranged attackers because we have no NLs. we also don’t need to worry about mass sed, even with two shadower cleavers and an attacking bishop. smoke, consistent damage to middle head, being able to sed comfortably when bishops die/dc, pickpocket splits, and no fear of mass sed are all reasons why I would bring a shadower over warriors.

I think the best overall view of how shadowers are doing is best depicted by Alyosha’s class tier list. In that regard, it’s pretty clear to see that shadowers are well rounded, versatile, and a great class to play.
https://forum.maplelegends.com/index.php?threads/class-tier-list.27260/

 

12 second Heaven's Hammer cooldown

 

I think OP was just farming toxic funny reacts. He/she has not replied to any posts in this thread.

 

To be fair, I don't think a 5% difference is as insignificant as you portray it from a balancing perspective. For some classes, that's the difference between having SE and not having it. It's also by about how much stronger paladins are than heroes for single target, by how much paly damage was buffed with the holy charge change with the Halloween balance changes, by how much battleship cannon damage was buffed with the last anniversary balance changes, and by how much MM damage was buffed with the strafe change during the last anniversary balance changes. Surely shads can want for a 5% damage boost without being considered annoying or extra. I'm not saying this magical 5% would make other people give this class a chance where they wouldn't necessarily before, but I think it would be a step in the right direction.

I understand you're coming at it from an angle of trying to show shads are perfectly playable to contrast the OP's gloomy narrative, and I don't disagree with that. But my angle here is trying to address balance and the question of whether buffs are warranted, for which fixating on numbers is the entire point.

What I've been trying to say is that I don't think the culmination of those benefits justifies fixing them in place. When I stack all the benefits and cons together, the picture I get is a "smooth" warrior with higher washing needs, lower pot spending, and lower damage that excels more in casual runs with no buffs or in runs where certain people dc. I would like to point out that I don't think shads are the best grinders by any significant margin, especially after the change to taunt. In fact, I've always gotten higher eph duoing with another hero than another shad. I also don't think that the possibility of people dcing is a very convincing argument for maintaining the status quo and that balance changes shouldn't be dictated by them.

I also don't think there's hard data for rejecting an increase in shad damage, which is why I've been trying to build a case. I don't think that warrior/bucc dpm is significantly less than their dummy dpm in most 1v1 bossing contexts, like shads. Stance means warriors have to reposition even less than shads. With shads already having an effective ~85% avoid rate while nating, adding in a bstep to dodge every attack you see would result in a decrease in dpm and just more pot savings. Stuns are really only relevant in something like pb statue phase. Cleave won't be stunned on right side during pb body phase, in zak one only needs to stand near the body and duck into it to avoid stuns, in HT during legs, cwkpq and targa shads would also be tanking with the other cleaves for optimal dpm. All in all, I think it just boils down mainly to pot savings again and indifference to archers/buccs dcing, which I don't think is a convincing enough reason for not buffing shads.

At this point, I don't even mind if a buff to shads isn't in the damage direction, as I've said. If we want to focus on relegating shads to a more support-based, beginner friendly entry-level class and give them more of a utility buff, then I'm all for it. I only feel that shads in their current state are missing a little something (read: a money printer ).

 

I'd have to push back a bit on shadowers having the same rating for single target dps as heroes and higher than DKs, and them also being as high as an A- for cleave potential relative to the A grade for heroes and DKs. Also a little puzzled on shads have a higher rating for NT than heroes, BMs, MMs and buccs and having the same rating as sairs and NLs.

With some adjustments to the table, or even as it currently is, it's a wonder that no one ever calls heroes, DKs and buccs "well rounded, versatile, and a great class to play". That's why such adjectives always came off to me as a backhanded compliment; it's used only in the context of justifying lower shad dpm output.

 

Gurk You say good things, agree to disagree. There are definitely truths to what you're sharing, I just feel like it's an unnecessary crusade. You won't catch me being mad when we buffed doe

 

What was the point of posting this guys leveling? lol

 

I got them from akash's and june's calculations, which seemed to also match sherman's numbers for warriors. Had also corrected the delay for ds + nate because for some reason the given delay numbers were saying you'd only be able to fit 37 nates in a minute, when it was actually 39.

 

One thing to note about my calculations is that I did NOT include perfect shield. If it was included, shadowers are a bit better.

 

yo thats you

 

LMAO I can't tell if my comment went through because it refreshed but I was trying to figure out why he was bringing up my leveling when it doesn't really have to do with the original post. Was trying to see what he would say before he knew it was me haha but thx

 

Because shads are the cooler, bossing friendly, hp washing friendly mage equivalents Shaolin degenerates. They're fine where they are.

 

Thanks for the calculation

If it does not bother you, is it possible to include perfect 1H sword (NT 1h and Timeless) with 20wa shield incomparision to shad? Just for personal reference as that is the direction I'm going with my Hero hahah

 

The numbers I was working with for buccs were with barrel cancelling included, which I got from Joot, and I suppose the hero numbers I had were inflated because of the SE handling error.

Appreciate you working the numbers!