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Information February 2023 Balance Changes [Explained]

Discussion in 'Update Notes' started by Nise, Feb 19, 2023.

  1. Vowels
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    Vowels Mr. Anchor

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    The beginner mage build preys on the fact that most mage skills are useless and because the build has very limited skill points it relies on the expectations that mages will never change. I want the class to become better and this might imply a rework or substantial buffs to skills that are currently bad (infinity, demons, and many other 3rd or 2nd job skills). Wanting a rework or wanting any change to the class goes against the interests of players that have sacrificed skills for HP, it's more convenient for this beginner build that things stay like they are because they don't have enough skill points.

    There is a conflict of interests in 'wanting changes' and 'wanting things to stay like they are'. I personally want changes and not because of beginners being a thing but because the mage class is needed of this. The mage class is stale and is basically in the same spot post-SI bugfix, every other class has become so much more thanks to facestompers and timeless weapons and how WA scales, between other important motives.

    The vast majority of mage mains I've talked with WANT changes, while the beginner build relies on the status quo to work. These are opposites and a mage rework would have caused the same arguments about how the new mage changes invalidates the 8m+ NX characters that chose to have less skill points.
     
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  2. Milkydoor
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    Milkydoor Master Chronos

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    I personally disagree and am interested in both skill changes and beginner washing. If changes were made that rendered my beginner build sub-optimal, I'd still be happy to play my first bishop, because ultimately I love the class. That also seems like an even more reasonable sacrifice to have a large hp pool at the cost of significant utility (which fartsy has already experienced to a degree), and I think it's an interesting decision to switch between the two for different content.

    I think anybody investing 8m+ NX clearly has interest in the longevity of MapleLegends and any skill changes that hopefully may follow. It would be incredibly short-sighted to think there's no way that sacrificing so much SP could backfire and that's a risk that every beginner mage should accept.
     
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  3. Lulinya
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    Lulinya Selkie Jr.

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    DKs are slow in attack animation, so If could please increase their hit box size just a bit would be much more pleasure, or some minor speed or jump buff skills would Improve QoL a lot.
     
  4. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    If mages get reworked in the future, those locked with limited SP on their beginner mages might get scuffed and made completely irrelevant.

    Should staff be responsible for bailing out and resetting their SP at that time too?
     
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  5. DoAnaise
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    DoAnaise Blue Snail

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    Definitely a good Drk rework imo. Adds more versatility and is more engaging and fun imo.

    Note: I have just zak'd with the new zerk and was using it throughout.

    Some things I'd like to mention and make aware is that with dragon blood "replacing" aura and aura being used for offensive, 3rd/4th job sp distribution is/might be something to take a look into. I would suggest dragon blood to be in 4th job and aura to be in 3rd job or something along those lines but obviously beholder (and consequently aura) is 4th job. Previously, I never had any points in dragon blood and had max spear fury to use whenever bossing and having to cleave mobs (zak, cwk to name a few), now I have like 9 points in spear fury, 20 in dragon blood, and 1 point in power crash (gave me more reasons to also get power crash for cwk).

    I also got used to zerking with aura healing and being indefinite instead of having to worry about cds (dragon blood). I'll suggest having it indefinitely as well, but I suppose that's the point of "replacing" previous aura with dragon blood. That's just something I'll probably have to get used to along with zerk active.

    Zerking is now even more scary if you choose to use the zerk active imo. You'll have to manage your hp and active zerk timer which I personally think is fun but can be stressful for others if they choose to do so or want to compete for maximum dps. Zerk active icon is a bit blended in with the cd timer, as zerk icon has a greyish background already, however, I'm not sure if the transparency update fixes/improves this or what the transparency update actually involves (have yet to read it). Additionally, a visual cue for active zerk timer would be great. I personally haven't noticed one other than looking at the actual buff at the top right. If not already implemented, I suggest maybe a fading of the horns to indicate the timer running out.

    Overall, definitely a big thumbs up from me. Solid work.

    Slight cd on active zerk (I'm guessing ~10/15 secs) Off cd (Free to use whenever)
    upload_2023-2-21_10-43-58.png upload_2023-2-21_10-45-8.png
     

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  6. Rainemard
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    Rainemard Balance Team Staff Member Balance Team

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    Real quick PSA here for the pallies: Achilles is currently bugged and doesn't work, so plan ahead with the amount of pots you bring + pet pot thresholds <3
     
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  7. TallBird
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    TallBird Mano

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  8. OP
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    Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    Damage reflection will inflict on you the same damage it does normally. So for the case of PB, if you smack it while you're at 2 HP, you're still going to die if there's a DR.

    Sorry, realized from the responses that I may not have been too clear with what I specifically meant about main vs. mule, since I was actually implying something else. I meant it in the sense that:
    • Mains = characters made the traditional way and one that is intended to be played from its creation till completion. This means advancing normally, having all the SP, and being "usable" throughout.
    • Mules (probably should've used another word, but couldn't think of one) = characters that are are essentially "unplayable" during a significant portion of it is leveling process. Even after becoming playable, not having access to the full range of skills.
      • People might say that any traditionally HP washed ranged character is the same, but even if you're an INTlord, you can still use your skills, card hunt (by yourself), etc.
    The problem isn't that beginner mages (what I incorrectly referred to as 'mules') have too much HP. Players using HP washing to get ridiculous amounts of HP, like 30k NLs have been a thing for plenty of years, so that part doesn't seem too big of an issue. It's that these beginner mages have multiple advantages over traditionally created mages (what I incorrectly referred to as 'mains'), with little to no drawbacks.

    Quoting from Fartsy's beginner mage guide:
    Such as:
    • Being able to get more HP
    • Being able to get more HP for the same amount of NX (it needing frontloaded NX is indeed a drawback, but let's put a pin on that for the time being).
    • Still being able to attain a decent MP pool (in addition to the HP)
    • Having access to the "core" skills despite the SP limitations (based on how terribly mages are designed originally)
    I think Vowels summarizes this part quite well:

    There are too many advantages compared to the drawbacks, which is why its problematic. Not solely because "oh they have too much HP".
     
  9. OP
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    Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    I think for us to pave the way for a mage rework in the future, we can't have too many of these beginner mages running around, because you'll have more and more people that start saying "oh now I have a dead character who can't utilize all the SP and the new skills that make a mage good now" (assuming the rest of the community wants a rework AND that the rework does happen).

    I also totally agree with how you feel about the current array of skills mages have and their lackluster nature~
     
  10. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    Being able to get more HP, sure this is an advantage.

    Being able to get more HP for the same amount of NX is also correct, but this is the same as the first advantage. I can also say that a player who chose to HP wash more efficiently is also able to get more HP for the same amount of nx. Ex, player who goes 120 base int with many mp wash vs player who goes 300 base int with less mp wash.

    Still being able to attain a decent mp pool? Can you in good faith call this an advantage over a normal mage? Normal mages cannot obtain a decent mp pool?

    Having access to core skills, does a normal mage not have access to the same skills if not more?

    Why are you claiming beginner mages have "Multiple advantages" over regular mages when there is actually just 1 real advantage, HP. Lets be real here, the problem is "oh they have too much HP".
     
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  11. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Nise already mentioned the main problem with beginner mage meta normalizing -- the missing SP. It's easier to nip things in the bud now and prevent other beginner mages being made, especially if class reworks are in the future. We're already seeing threads complaining about a lack of SP for regular build DKs because of the new changes. I'd reckon people would be angrier down the road if their SP capped beginner mages now couldn't be utilized properly due to additional skill-related class identity/utility reworks.

    Also, want to point out the funny logic loop in your argument. If beginner mage's only advantage is being triviaized to just more HP, why defend its existence?
     
  12. fartsy
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    fartsy Zakum

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    [QUOTE="Nise, post: 331184, member: 11111"
    • Mains = characters made the traditional way and one that is intended to be played from its creation till completion. This means advancing normally, having all the SP, and being "usable" throughout.
    • Mules (probably should've used another word, but couldn't think of one) = characters that are are essentially "unplayable" during a significant portion of it is leveling process. Even after becoming playable, not having access to the full range of skills.
      • People might say that any traditionally HP washed ranged character is the same, but even if you're an INTlord, you can still use your skills, card hunt (by yourself), etc.
    The problem isn't that beginner mages (what I incorrectly referred to as 'mules') have too much HP. Players using HP washing to get ridiculous amounts of HP, like 30k NLs have been a thing for plenty of years, so that part doesn't seem too big of an issue. It's that these beginner mages have multiple advantages over traditionally created mages (what I incorrectly referred to as 'mains'), with little to no drawbacks.
    [/QUOTE]

    I really don't see the problem with "mules" as my bm Shears is actually more muley than my FP. He leeched to 200 holding 480 base INT in the process. I would say more than half my total playtime on him was to macro SE and MW at 5-6. All my nonessential quests such as Hero's Will were held off until after 200. A INTlord trying to get 30k HP can also never get t10 ring by themselves in any reasonable amount of time. I'm not sure if it can even wear a claw. If so, can it deal more damage than my Energy Bolt and farm more efficiently?

    Faisal's infinite washing guide came out late 2017. Beginner mages were actually started summer 2019 after Shear reached 200 and I wanted to remake Fartsy. It's less than 2 years apart, a small fraction of the server's lifespan. The reason why people started hearing about them so late was because I had to keep it away from the public until I job advanced. I knew there would have been a knee jerk reaction like the changes in early 2020.

    [QUOTE="Nise, post: 331184, member: 11111"
    • Being able to get more HP
    • Being able to get more HP for the same amount of NX (it needing frontloaded NX is indeed a drawback, but let's put a pin on that for the time being).
    • Still being able to attain a decent MP pool (in addition to the HP)
    • Having access to the "core" skills despite the SP limitations (based on how terribly mages are designed originally)
    [/QUOTE]

    1st and 2nd points are right, 3rd is applicable to anyone (Shears included, I have 20k MP there). 4th point was always where beginner methods became interesting. That's because people now assign some value to the SP lost. It's a permanent wager I find uniquely satisfying. How much SP should I give up?

    Basically I see no real advantage other than HP... unless you count extra use slots from honsters instead of barbs.

    edit: just pretend like the quotes work, i'm noob
     
  13. fartsy
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    fartsy Zakum

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    that ship was an open secret known by staff and 3.5y too late
     
  14. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    Please see MilkydoorMilkydoor 's post above regarding people being angry due to further changes down the road. If changes happen to skills down the road that make their character useless, well thats tough luck and what players get for creative builds. See dex bucc and HH mules.

    As for the defense, for the record, I am willing to accept any staff ruling on it. I just hope that we do not continue down the slippery slope and end up retroactively removing HP from existing beginner mage because that then opens up the door to do the same for other heavily washed classes.

    Do you disagree that beginner mage only advantage is HP?
     
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  15. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Personally, I don't care what happens with this -- I'm generally in favor of unique builds and think axing all character variability in this game makes for a more one-dimensional experience. I read Milkydoor's post and I think it's a fair take from a player's perspective. Players want an open playground of sorts, and that's to be expected considering they're not responsible for any of the messes they might make. However, I'm also partial to the management side of this debate as I can empathize with staff attempting to shut down something before it becomes an even bigger issue down the road. It seems like this change already ruffled some feathers for a small group of people in the middle of their beginner mage builds, but I'd imagine the complaints would only get worse if left alone for a larger beginner mage population to arise. Some will say they'd be happy to oblige for any future developments, but missing SP isn't something that can be fixed from the player's side whereas things like dexbucc/HH mule builds could with AP Resets -- and I think you're forgetting the animosity people had towards staff when HH/dexbucc mules got nerfed.

    Sure, beginner mage's only advantage is HP, but that on its own is fairly nuanced, isn't it?
     
  16. OP
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    Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    By "multiple advantages" the focus is on how they sacrifice nothing to obtain the same things (if not better). That in itself is an advantage isn't it?

    Creative builds, off-meta builds are about sacrificing something. You sacrifice some sort of efficiency, some sort of damage, some skills, etc to achieve your results. If we look at the two commonly cited examples of dex buccs and HH mules:
    • Dex buccs: Due their investment into dex, they didn't have as high damage as traditional Buccs (hopefully I'm remembering this correctly). Their one benefit was avoidability, which came at the sacrifice of damage.
    • HH mules: Of course it depends on how they were built, but if it was a LUK HH mule, they didn't have any other source of damage besides HH. They were clearly subpar compared to traditional Paladins.
    Beginner mages are NOT clearly subpar compared to traditional mages.
    • Same damage
    • Same MP pool
    • More HP
    • More efficient NX use
    • Access to all the core skills
    Having access to these without any drawbacks is the advantage I was referring to. Of course, there is the drawback that's been mentioned which is that it "is not future proofed" for reworks because of limited SP. But that's only something players would have thought of yesterday as a legitimate concern, since we've never done an overhaul of a class to this extent where multiple skills across different job advancements were overhauled.

    So based on how beginner mages are not inferior to traditional mages, and arguably identical or even stronger, how would the meta shape up in the future? If players want to make a viable end-game mage, they would feel compelled to do the beginner mage method, rather than the traditional method. Sort of like how people were compelled to start hyper washing ranged attackers as it became the norm. We're currently in the midst of trying to reduce this disparity (with our HP challenges system), so would it not be counter-intuitive of us to allow something similar to happen yet again? (This time being hyper washed mages become the "norm")
     
  17. iPippy
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    iPippy Nightshadow

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    Players: *conceal design flaws because you know they'll get patched if known*

    Players after the flaw gets patched: *surprised pikachu*

    When did we reach the point that we feel our loopholes must be protected at all costs? There really shouldn't be any reason required for patching this up other than that it doesn't fit the overall vision of the game. Traditional washing only sticks around because it got too deeply ingrained in the society to be removed, and just look at all the extra work it takes to keep it around (HP challenges are only the first required step of a long term return to form). Beginner cheese isn't at that point yet, nor should it be allowed to get to that point. If it isn't hit, any future decisions would have to be made in mind with the fact that some users have builds outside the scope of what is intended. As is, the game already has to do a balancing act between allowing the hp-challenged NL to play the game and providing enough meaningful challenge to the 30k NL without rendering most every other class obsolete (impossible). Bridging yet another gap from unwashed mage-> washed mage-> beginner mage places even more undue burden on the design process which simply does not need to exist.

    We as players tend to complain about the ever rising washing requirements brought about by new content added by staff, but we bring it upon ourselves. We wash to escape the intended requirements and improve our efficiency, and the hp requirements reluctantly catch up with us, leaving chaos beneath it.

    As the server ages, nxgate becomes less of a problem for long term users and more of a problem for newly joining users. HP is meta; for efficiency, and for survivability, and thus muleability. The number of beginner mages was starting to grow, just like it did for other poor designs like dexbucc and hhmule. The pressure to also need one builds, whether it is to abuse content to the same degree, or simply get by in new contents which must be tailored to the new wash order.

    And I'd disagree that beginner mage simply having more HP is not a problem. Among them, by current boss design the future of auf is beginner bishop. That's how bishop can finally be muled there. Sure only 8 characters enter auf per day, but the survivability gap between even a regular washed mage and a beginner mage is large that it counters many attempts at rebalancing the fight. Are beginner mages what prevents normal bishop/archmage from enjoying auf (outside of spamming mg in the corner)? No, that's probably still the 30k range fault, but it's virtually at the point where you'd have to have a beginner mage or insane nx to survive. And now we're simply pushing the washing envelope again...

    Beginner mage wasn't (yet) too big to fail, and anybody who made one knew what they were signing up for if the character is made obsolete overnight. With the HP challenges, I also believe the server has finally taken its first step into closing the gap between intended design and player washing shenanigans. Ultimately I think it will take the effective nuking of character HP variation and adjusting damage on a class specific level (defense rework when?). Players' real fear isn't in losing their 30k, but losing the advantage brought about by the 30k (and ability to make more) from age and multivote. 30k NL isn't a problem if every NL is given 30k... and then rebalanced accordingly.

    (If this reads all over the place, it's 2:30am and I can't be bothered to edit. Deal with it)
     
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  18. Averdant
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    Averdant King Slime

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    I can't speak for the rest, as this is probably where I differ from them (Milkydoor might possibly be of the same kind as me). But the 2 reasons I was going for a beginner mage build was because it's the most extreme washing project available (I would consider it harder than 30k/30k attackers due to the heavy frontloading of NX, not just total NX required) and that I'm a mage main.
    Fartsy's guide suggests only lvl 63 & lvl 95 for bishop job advancements because there's not enough useless skills to give up, I haven't decided 100% if I'm going AM or bishop yet but I am contemplating lvl 120 job advancement if I choose to go bishop and I am willing to forgo more core skills than anyone else would be willing to for the sake of higher HP in this project. Mystic door? Summons? Mana reflection? Elemental Resist? HS? MW? Possibly maybe even dispel too (even though party members can use all cure pots, who's going to dispel boss buffs?). Magic guard at only level 12 for 52% dmg to MP, to maintain a close to 50:50 ratio for dmg taken between HP and MP (fartsy's guide has it at level 16), possibly lower level teleport as well.

    You'll be a fool to think that losing core skills would stop me in a passion project. If I needed a proper char with all the required proper skills then I would use a proper char for that, not this which I'm just pushing for something extreme beyond the norms. You might ask me, why play a suboptimal creativity build that wastes more than >10m NX when I can play a 30k NL that requires far less NX and is far superior? The answer is because I enjoy the build creativity despite the drawbacks just like those luk mages willing to use level 163 staves and lose damage (assuming they know what they're doing).

    Like I've suggested to Nise, I'll rather the difficulty level of doing a beginner mage build be higher than have it entirely locked out if staff still feels a need to "balance" beginner mages.

    Pretty much this. I am ready to take the L anytime when I decided to go for this build.

    Perhaps you can just call "mains" normal chars and "mules" crippled chars.
    My crippled 27k/10k 700 INT sair can't do anything in the game except maybe card hunt at snails, but it's probably not a traditionally HP washed range character in your books.

    So having too much HP isn't an issue, the issue is just having advantages over normal mages with no drawbacks?

    These are the "advantages" quoted

    1. Able to get more HP than normal mages, yes but not without drawbacks. My first bishop started MP washing at lvl 5x, currently at level 159 5.7k base HP 29k base MP with about 3.1m NX cash shop history for AP resets. I don't think I exchanged for AP resets much during events considering I have a lot of spare NX in my acct (currently at 2.8m spare NX since playing in 2020). I usually hover my base mp around 29k and I spent 19 APR on stale hp washing, 5 APR on mp washing (total of 24 APRs) for my last level. At the current trajectory for the remaining 41 levels let's say I use an average of 21 APR per lvl on stale hp washing per lvl.
    That's [(41 x 5 APR for mp washing) + (41 x 21 APR for hp washing)] = 1066 AP resets = 3.3m NX
    I'm going to get (41 x average 12 hp gain on lvl) + (41 x 21 x 6 hp per stale hp wash) = 492 + 5166 = 5658 hp gain from level 159-200
    I think that puts me at an estimated 11.35k base HP with 6.4m lifetime NX

    You're comparing 11.2m NX for fartsie's 23.5k~24k base, vs my 6.4m NX for 11.35k base
    More HP for more NX sounds reasonable, plus the frontloaded NX issue of crippling the char for 3.5 years before playing

    2. Being able to get more HP for the same amount of NX (ignoring the frontloaded NX) only applies for certain lower HP goals, when pushing your chars to the limits you can see in 1. that the ratio of HP:NX doesn't have a large disparity for fartsie vs someone who started mp washing at level 5x. I also did not have to leech my mage to level 150 which is a drawback that beginner mage suffers.

    3. All mages can eventually get to 29k base MP with some washing. In fartsie's case he had 1.3k base mp at level 120 causing him to be unable to use blizz/meteor, 15k base mp at level 153 and only 29k base mp at level 175 whereas my bishop that started washing at level 5x (I think mid 5x) already hit 29k base MP at level 125 which enabled me to freely spam my genesis incredibly early compared to him. If we're purely talking about MP fartsie getting to the same amount of MP as my lvl 125 bishop at lvl 175 makes it a big disadvantage, no? I wouldn't say that his HP came with no drawbacks in this case.

    4. Depending on if it's AM or BS. For bishops you'll really have to forgo some core skills if you want to go all the way with the beginner mage build. Only AMs are not affected by SP limitations.

    I think it's a bit hard for 3.5 years of crippled char experience to become the "norm" or meta, it's essentially for masochists or people who are doing it as passion projects. There might be people who hype it up and excitedly talk about their plans to have 20k beginner mage armies, but I don't see the majority of them making it beyond the first 1-2 years of voting when the difficulty level is this high.
     
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  19. Selquin
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    Selquin Headless Horseman

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    The main objection people have is not towards whether or not beginner mage should be nerfed, but rather that some people already got away with their beginner mages and got off scott free. This would be more like if all newly created paladins don't have HH but the existing mules still had their free 200k/10sec cd HH. If you guys wanted to nerf beginner mage, thats fine, but you should have done it a long long time ago, it is way too late now.
     
  20. OP
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    Just out of curiosity, when would it not have been "too late" in your opinion? How many beginner mages (or lets say 10k+ HP mages) need to be completed or in progress before its "too late"?

    After the creation of the very first one? Or would it be something like a percentage of the total number of mages of the server?
     

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