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Pink bean and it's current state

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by mathijs2000, Dec 23, 2020.

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  1. Dimez
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    Dimez Stone Golem

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    5:14 PM
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    This should be looked at again.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  2. Gurk
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    Gurk Headless Horseman

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    The only practical and viable suggestion in this thread seems to be reducing the delay between DR activation and when characters actually start taking damage. However, that would also be a major "fuck you" to BMs without making PB animations more visible, like Akash suggested, although now that most squads have now downsized its actually already so much easier to react to DR animation.

    The other suggestions of lowering timer or increasing damage reduction serve to only make PB even more class-exclusive than it already is (read: non-NLs need not apply), which doesn't seem healthy. Other viable suggestions would have to be ones that increase the difficulty of PB in a way that doesn't just increase the amount of damage required, i.e. changes that reward more skillful play, which is perhaps difficult in a 2003 mushroom game where most people just hold down one button.
     
  3. Vowels
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    Vowels Mr. Anchor

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    6:14 PM
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    what do you think about nerfing apples WATT, this nerfs everyones powercreep at the same time

    Lets be honest and discuss how healthy to the game is 100 WATT for 10 minutes for 2.5m mesos, some classes scale way too hard
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  4. iPippy
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    iPippy Nightshadow

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    In an inevitable turn of events, everyone realized the gap between NL and everyone else was simply that massive and "cut the fat", so to speak. And its a real catch-22 at that. Keep the Bean as is and it will be ran exclusively with NL and NL-support and friends of the NL in ~18-20 man (there's like.... a couple 30 man squads still around?). And 18 is more of a "safety" cutoff, there's still plenty of optimization that could be done to reduce runner counts. Prone to failure by DC, but I believe that number could likely go as low as 12-13, with the best of the best and proper mule support.

    What if we made the bean harder then? Making the bean harder by requiring higher damage output will only further reinforce the NL meta, but could potentially make them use an extra apple or two, or *maybe* recruit another party of NLs if difficulty spikes hard enough. If NL simply did not exist in this game (and seriously why should it from a balance perspective?), I actually believe that the performance gap between most of the other classes in bean is actually not that bad. There would still be classes better suited than others, but then the opportunity cost of bringing your Hero friend compares against bringing say another MM, instead of an NL, outputting double the damage for half the cost and infinitely easier execution. We've got NLs already mage farming on the side, or surfing the web during body-the hardest part of the fight is waiting long enough to wash to absurdity.

    Since increasing direct DPM requirements is out of the question, the next way to change the fight in regard to difficulty is to make the fight more mechanically engaging/deadly. Which is, of course, also impossible with the existence of a class where virtually any attack is just "MISS" with 0 penalty, while having the maximal damage, and aggro abusing the one statue capable of providing any semblance of a challenge. Anything that makes the fight more deadly makes it disproportionately more difficult for the warriors, archers, sairs, and mages. Classes which have ways to "dodge" get huge boosts (NL, Shad, Bucc). Avoiding attacks is quite powerful, Shad just doesnt have quite enough baseline damage to really show that off at the moment.

    The existence of super-powered Onyx Apples are also a problem here, but lets be real once again: ignoring any economic ramifications of removing a central piece of cash flow between players (especially to lower level players), squads would just become a 30-man NL mosh pit to compensate the loss of their (longer-lasting) attack pots.

    Oops! All Night Lords.

    The NL-gap is visible in other areas too, even the likes of HT imo. The difference there is that much of the damage differential can still be compensated for with levels, gear, and a bit of fight knowledge. What happens when we design a fight specifically aimed at the highest levels? The differences become that much more apparent, with no way to level beyond 200.

    Pink Bean *should* be harder than it is currently. The threshold to get a 30-man to clear is actually ridiculously low. With enough apples/cheese, enough knowledge of how to approach the fight safely, and potentially enough mesos for meso explosion, the fight becomes so easy that any class can join in (and there has been representation from every class). In fact, its actually harder in a 30-man, as there's no extra room to pack in tons of res/tl/hb/se/ss/mw/blind/meditate/whatever else you could possibly want mules. But virtually any way of improving the fight is going to simultaneously be ignored by NLs and push almost every other class into obscurity.

    Drastic times call for drastic measures: the only path open is to do something which has never been done before in the history of MapleLegends:

    .
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    REMOVE NL FROM THE GAME. (or at least nerf them back in line for once in their lives)

    #NLCanGrind
    #NerfNL
    #JusticeForRightBird
    #PipForPresident
     
    • Agree Agree x 14
    • Great Work Great Work x 3
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  5. fartsy
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    fartsy Zakum

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    4:14 PM
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    who in the endgame community isnt making a nl anyways
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  6. Skuire
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    Skuire Nightshadow

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    BUMP to this based and factually correct post which everyone should read at least 10 times. #PipForPresident
     
  7. Jaewonnie
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    Jaewonnie Capt. Latanica

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    PAWGChamp
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    I suggested this before in disc but don't think it was taken seriously. What if minibeans were given much more health, autoaggro'd (they may already do this I dun remember), and didn't weap cancel? The point being is that there will at least be some cleave relevance otherwise NLs, archers will be doing a lot of whacking. Hopefully it can be implemented in way that can't be snatch/magnet muled.

    This suggestion is more about shuffling party composition requirements as opposed to increasing overall difficulty tho.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  8. TORONTOTOKYO
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    TORONTOTOKYO Windraider

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    i do not want to quote or discuss about other servers. but it seemed that the newer v83 servers recognized that NLs are simply way too powerful. What did they do? They buffed every single class to be slightly/largely better except NL. Of cos, its much easier to provide such patches when the server is new and not old like legends. But its kind of sad to see support classes get marginalized/muled. Oh well, just go make your NLs. I now have 1 too.
     
  9. TORONTOTOKYO
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    TORONTOTOKYO Windraider

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    5:14 AM
    could disable multiclient in bean. LOL
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. Gurk
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    Gurk Headless Horseman

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    I think for such a suggestion to have enough weight to matter, mini bean summoning would have to be more frequent and more beans would have to be summoned, and at that point, for better or worse, it'd result in the inclusion of more AMs rather than warriors or shads.
     
  11. Jaewonnie
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    Jaewonnie Capt. Latanica

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    Crimsonwood Mountain: Cavern of Pain
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    PAWGChamp
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    There is room for balance. You could make summons more frequent or make them have millions of HP to increase their uptime; either option achieves the same thing. Regarding AM vs cleaves, you could spawn a smaller number of beans but tankier which is more in tune for cleaves; a larger number but less tankier which is better for AMs. Regardless of what is chosen, NLs/archers get gimped unless their is enough cleave dmg to clear the beans.
     
  12. xiaoyaoz
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    xiaoyaoz Balance Team Staff Member Balance Team

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    10:14 PM
    I think this actually makes very little impact to help cleaves.
    One major reason is the mini-beans just scatter off and fly around like a fkin annoying mosquito, which means cleaver would need to chase them if they actually want to clear them.
    And that only assumes if you summons small amount of buffy mini-beans, any number above 3, ranges can just use their 6 target skills like avenger/arrow rain to be as or more effective than the cleavers.
    Other than that, low hp mini-beans are almost instantly dead at spawn anyway
     
  13. Jaewonnie
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    Jaewonnie Capt. Latanica

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    Crimsonwood Mountain: Cavern of Pain
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    PAWGChamp
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    I was hoping they'd autoaggro. Minibeans in statue phase will prolly scatter everywhere but I think they can be meaningful during body phase since many players are near PB for the mini ones to lock onto. If they are designed to have, let's say for example 5m-10m hp, it will be pretty important to clear the minibeans otherwise NL/archer will never be able to get their main body dmg in before the next DR.

    Current minibeans are totally irrelevant since they die from two mage ults.
     
  14. Jaewonnie
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    Jaewonnie Capt. Latanica

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    Actually the biggest issue with thicc minibean idea is that someone could just aggro them and hug the edge of the map, sorta like how a full range pt would do in JC. GG then
     
  15. shck
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    shck Timer Retired Staff

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    at this point disabling multiclient in certain bosses would be worth taking a re-look at.
    obviously not zak, scarga, cwkpq. but more like HT, pink bean & maybe NT.
     
  16. Selquin
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    Selquin Headless Horseman

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    The result would be the same, people will simply use multiple computers. If staff wants to commit to a multiclienting ban, they will have to make it a bannable offence.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  17. WatIsDeze
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    WatIsDeze Horny Mushroom

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    Nuuuuu we haf 2 bUfF avengeeer!!!! My class SO BAD :'((((((
     
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  18. fael
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    fael Nightshadow

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    Why not making those cleave skills like brandish/spear crisher/bstep hit like heal? If multiple targets, it would hit less, and if on a single target, it would hit harder.
    Or make mini beans drop prestigious coins, so everyone will want to kill them :p
    I also think multiclienting should be a bannable offense for CERTAIN bosses (mostly ht and pb)
     
  19. Netlel
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    Netlel Mano

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    In addition to making DR activate a lot faster than it currently does, maybe it's possible to make different jobs/skills take different DR damage? if so that could be tuned in a way that weaker classes like warriors pretty much always survive it, while NLs, corsairs and MMs should take 30k and instantly die ^__^
     
  20. Kiaraaa
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    Kiaraaa Chronos

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    yay! disable multi-client in PB MapleF3
     

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