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Prestigious Coins system suggestions

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by akashsky, Apr 30, 2022.

  1. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    Hi I would like to propose some changes to our prestigious coin system.

    1) Make chaos scrolls and white scrolls tradable again.

    2) Remove the ability to exchange a white scroll or chaos scroll for a mysterious pouch 5

    3) Increase the meso fee for crafting prestigious coins into white scrolls or chaos scrolls.



    The change to make cs / ws untradable was probably aimed at punishing old cs/ws hoarders and promote hoarding prestigious coins. It was extremely effective in accomplishing both. However, I don't think these things are healthy for the server in the long run. People are going to hoard any valuable item, and you can't stop this unless the item becomes untradable or expires. Furthermore, players are practically forced to hoard due to a 2.1b meso cap.

    The update essentially linked the price of chaos and white scrolls together, which, after playing the new patch for 4 months, I think is not desirable. Removing the ability to exchange cs/ws for pouches will "delink" the two items and allow them to have their own separate market prices. This combined with making the two scrolls tradable would give a supply boost to the market, where players don't have to lose 10% of a scroll to sell them in the market.

    (Linked CS/WS prices cause chaos'd item prices to go up whenever white scroll prices go up. Example, price of a white scroll goes up because a few ppl are perfecting their timeless. Since cs/ws come from the same resource, chaos price goes up as well and so do the respective chaos scrolled items).

    Lastly, the inflation rate of maplelegends is insane. Prices have been rising by like 5% or so every single month. I think that having the cs/ws crafting system take more mesos out of circulation could help.
     
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  2. Selquin
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    Selquin Headless Horseman

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  3. Snork
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    Snork Capt. Latanica

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    pls dont buff farming

    actually it would be fun to see what this would do to the market

    as for the OP it seems way better than the current setup, even if my chances as a pleb bosser to play the cs roulette would diminish with a higher fee
     
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  4. lemonpasta
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    lemonpasta Horny Mushroom

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    I agree.


    I assume that the arbitrary meso fee of 10m is a meso sink or a way to tax cs/ws users.

    If the goal is to counter inflation, the meso fee shouldn’t be fixed at any amount.

    Instead, it should be a % of the total value of coins used to craft a cs/ws.

    However, this will be impossible to implement.



    Some calculations:


    Ignore the highlighted cells except for the cells in purple, it represents the current price of prestigious coins now.


    Effective price of coins when meso fee is fixed at 10m:

    [​IMG]


    Effective price of coins if tax rates are fixed at 5%:


    [​IMG]


    Effective price of cs/ws at different tax rates:

    [​IMG]


    Instead of charging a flat meso fee, I think the 10m meso fee should be replaced with another etc item.

    This means cs/ws users will need 100 prestigious coins + another etc item to craft a cs/ws.

    In my opinion, it should not be an existing etc but a new etc item.


    It should be an etc item that

    • Requires cs/ws users to rely on early to mid game players to farm

    • Creates an opportunity cost for cs/ws users should they decide to farm them
     
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  5. xiaoyaoz
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    xiaoyaoz Balance Team Staff Member Balance Team

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    (Disclaimer: Speaking as player like usual because representing staff is hard :x )

    1) Help me understand why is hoarding ws/cs is in a better state than only P.coins? presumably both ws/cs and P.coins will be available to hoard with this suggestion?

    2) Seems like P.coins will be a one-way road to ws/cs, not sure about the intention but the implication along with 1) will have P.coins pegged to the higher value scroll and only be crafted into that, making the lower value scroll mostly supplied by gach only, is that what is desired?

    3) Increase by how much? and why? isn't this just giving more value to meso farmer instead of coin farmer? which doesn't really help with the supply production of ws/cs (presumably farming coin is faster than farming gach for ws/cs), which leads to more meso farmer and thus positive net meso even tho it seems like there is more sink.
     
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  6. SwordnBoard
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    SwordnBoard Selkie Jr.

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    Put an expiry on all existing WS/CS and force the usage of coin hording/farming.

    REDUCE the cost of crafting new WS/CS.

    Make it so you cant hold more than 100 coins per characer.

    Watch the world burn.

    556898306077360156.gif
     
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  7. OP
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    akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    1. There are underlying issues with the design of the game that promote hoarding, like the fact that in order to get a good result from white scrolls or a chaos scroll, you need on average 10 or more. Having a 2.1b meso cap is another factor. Hoarding is something we are going to have to live with.

    2. The role of P.coins in this scenario is to supplement the supply of the more in demand scroll, acting as a market buffer to prevent things from getting way out of control.

    3. I can give any arbitrary number on how much to increase by, but i don't have access to the ML meso data to give an informed number on this. If one wants to be conservative, i think it should be increased to at least 20m. From the perspective of a player, the server has insane inflation across several key items (cs/ws, GFA30%, some other gacha locked 30s). One way to handle this inflation is to introduce more meso sink, in the end it doesn't really matter how the meso sink is introduced, you could increase meso tax on trades, make some cash shop items purchaseable with meso via a npc, or some other option. I am suggesting to have P.coins act as more of a meso sink.

    Btw, at current prices, coin farming is not faster than farming gach for ws/cs, at least for those with multimage setups.
     
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  8. Paxill
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    Paxill Mushmom

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    Personally I found it a strange move by staff that the prestigious shop doesn't allow a direct conversion of mesos to prestigious coin. WS and CS would be locked at a consistent value, inflation is curved a bit by having a major meso sink, and the impact of multimage farming on the casual player base will be reduced.
     
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  9. iPippy
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    iPippy Nightshadow

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    If we actually want to tackle this inflation, we should be looking at fixing the sources of both raw meso and "luxury" items. A raw meso tax still leaves all the incentive/power to multimage unchecked.

    Yeah, yeah typical "mUlTiMaGe bAd", but compared to bossing or even leeching, it puts a larger strain on the influx of meso. Bossing is generally considered as a sink due to the vast majority of items/coins needing to be sold in order to realize profits. Only NPCable equips contribute to direct meso creation, typically seen as the earnings from low level bosses like pap/rav, or from NPCing unsold boss gear like zhelm/egg. Even the summon items have no direct, NPC-backed value; their value is a function of supply and demand, which is in turn based on value of the fight itself (NPCables or coins or service).

    I do reiterate that coins and expensive books/equips (the big reasons why players run boss content, especially after 200) are dependent on the market to determine its meso value. Therein lies a major difference between bossing and multimage as a form of revenue. A significantly larger portion of multimage profits are constant, backed by raw meso and NPCable drops. The values of all other items/services must effectively bow down to this number, as it provides the baseline of the server's income.

    If bossing content is "weaker" in terms of value gained per unit time, then more people flock to multimage, printing ever more money and lowering the value of meso, raising price/value of goods in the process. Of course this means that bossing becomes a bit stronger as it's earnings go up by raising the meso value of coins/equips/books, especially now that ws/cs progression is at least somewhat tied into bossing now. But until we reach a steady-state equilibrium where boss earnings are on par (nay, greater than) multimage earnings, there is simply nothing the server can do but continue the spiral into hyper inflation. IMO we are not quite at that point yet, and coveted goods/coins will likely see a bit more rise.

    While direct meso creation is the controlling factor in value of many goods/services, the other side of the market should also be more thoroughly investigated. That is, how some of these luxury items are actually attained. Some items are from bossing (stompers), but the vast majority of items referenced are gach-locked scrolls/gloves of incredibly high demand. I'd say that the issue is slightly different here, but leads to the same outcome; it's far too easy to corner the market of gach locked scrolls and raise its value. This implies that the value of these items is not strictly due to demand, but is partially due to their ability to be controlled. Even ws/cs are more difficult to control due to large scale decentralization among the entire bossing community. Gfa30 is mostly locked behind gach, another plus for the multimage farm. I don't believe the inflation could be truly tackled unless there is some way to prevent this kind of market cornering on coveted, low-supply items.

    Dont get me wrong, I don't think farming is all bad. In fact, it's necessary to keep meso flowing and provide a source of income for any player. I simply claim that as farming production has been power crept, bossing generation of items largely has not. With the current systems in place, the value of bossing would eventually be brought up to be competitive with farming, but that will be by making meso worthless and coin worth significantly more. Who knows how much coin or other items will cost by then? We could adjust that equilibrium either by boosting bossing generation or by reducing the static income of farming, depending in if we view bossing as too weak or farming too strong (or a bit of both).

    Buffing bossing would be with the intent of drawing away farmers from farming and into bossing content instead, with the promise of better returns. Of course if "cornians on the side" is anything to go by, even a significantly buffed bossing sphere would still be bolstered by farming. It'd take either changing boss content to not enable farming on the side or farming to be too cumbersome/expensive to not be worth doing on the side to make that work. At that point, I'd rather see all meso drops, npc-able prices, and even the wallets of all players halved. :cool: If we can't figure out how to nerf mage/sair/dk farming or remove ToT platforms, we can at least bridge the gap between farming and bossing and slow raw meso generation by reducing raw meso generation.

    Uh... /endrant I guess
     
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  10. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    As Pip mentioned above, staff are failing to see the main driver of coin prices in that meso farmers understand the value of their time, and until the coin prices reaches parity to other methods of coin production, they're in an unrestricted advantaged state that allows for them to buy out coins regardless of rising coin prices.

    Players went and play tested the average number of coins produced per hour through bossing, and that comes out to around like 5 coins/hr, which at today's market rate is 2.9m is about 14.5m mesos. An hour of selling skele leech will net more than that. An hour of multimage farming (let's say ~28/hr to account for all types of mage farming) will net 9-10 coins consistently.

    Production of coins via bossing and multimaging for mesos will reach parity when coins become 5.6m each in the current system. This means 1 hour of multimage farming at 28m/hour will produce the same amount of coins by bossing - ONLY IF coin prices reach a market value of 5.6m.

    Note: this also doesn't take into account the added bonus via gach, where farmers have a chance of producing a ws/cs. Bossers do not have this advantage.

    So what are the solutions to the rising costs of coins?
    • Lower the effectiveness of multimaging somehow or,
    • Increase the production rate of coins via bossing (or other content like CWK exchange)
    Best solution is most likely a combination of both.

    In the past, staff would always mention that bossing economy implementations were never meant to be on par with mage farming. If you continue to think this way, we're never going to see an end to the farming meta.
     
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  11. Lucidcat
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    Lucidcat Mixed Golem

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    Key point: more meso sink.
     
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  12. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

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    The better question to ask in regards to the current system and the untradeable/linked nature of WS/CS isn't how to ask how to change it, but to ask how parts of the system are justifiable within the current meta.

    I do think that there are needless complications baked into the whole system that could be undone without any real drawbacks. The design philosophy of the system ought to be simple enough for any new player to understand, and the conversions to different currencies in certain locations and the necessity to do some quick math when judging the pouches for sale creates an inefficient and confusing system that has to be explained by someone every time a new player hits it big in gachapon.

    The current system isn't nearly as clean as it could be, and it could be rightfully made intuitive with these suggestions. Apple products thrived on intuitive and sleek design, but coins as they currently stand are a moderately bloated mess. I think that instead of asking for justification for these changes, what needs to be asked are justifications of the current system and its design.
     
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  13. zeroxlr
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    zeroxlr Windraider

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    I'm seriously wondering and making multi-mages....
    • FROM SCRATCH
    From the beginning of when I first started playing ML in Oct. 2020, I've been on this long long road. It's harder than it looks for someone who've been here only for 1-2 years tbh.


    It took me 5 to 6 months to get my First Character (Bishop) to level 139 with enough TMA to farm basic ToT.
    • I took a few months break since it was my first character, and I was getting burned out, as you can see from my characters leveling date
    • my first character had TONS of help from my guild + discord, but it was still very tough to get it where it is now

    I started making and self leeched 2x FPs and 1x 2nd Bish and it's taking me 4-5 months so far... just to get them all to level 90 to 100 range with only my weak Starter Bish.
    • Making Multi-mage setup right from the start, without funding is SUPER HARD
    • It really takes a long time IRL
    • FP lvl 114, FP lvl 111, Priest lvl 97
    As you can see, I'm still very far from getting my 2xFP and 1xPriest to becoming viable.
    • I still need to save up mesos for gearing each one
    • I'd also need to buy mw20 + gen30 service for Priest when it becomes Bish

    I'm hoping that all the IRL time I'm putting in is actually worth something, especially since Earning the ability to multi-mage is extremely challenging.



    Overall... I think the inflation with the PCoins and WS/CS is really tough, and makes it seem like all the good items would be forever unobtainable.
    • It'd be very cool if the Staff directly connects Meso amounts to PCoins or CS/WS
    • Manually Increases/Decreases the price with each new patch/maintenance depending on Power Creep vs Power Drain (as seen from server data)

    upload_2022-5-1_23-3-13.png upload_2022-5-1_23-2-39.png upload_2022-5-1_23-2-10.png

    upload_2022-5-1_23-1-43.png upload_2022-5-1_23-1-11.png

    upload_2022-5-1_23-15-6.png upload_2022-5-1_23-14-45.png upload_2022-5-1_23-14-24.png upload_2022-5-1_23-14-2.png


    upload_2022-5-1_23-21-56.png upload_2022-5-1_23-21-32.png
     

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  14. TORONTOTOKYO
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    TORONTOTOKYO Windraider

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    I am impressed with your sharpness :D
     
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  15. Jean Justen
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    Jean Justen Mushmom

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    This. Increasing the drop rate, number of coins by pouch or adding the abillity to get coins by other means could be the solution.

    I don't wanna quit and come back again only to see WS prices at 500m. (Quit a year ago and they were like 120m).
    It seems like perfecting 1 weapon slot is a faraway dream now. 3b for a slot ( assuming i'll pass 1/10) its just too much. By the time i farm this amount, who guarantees the prices will stay the same? The inflation just rises and i don't believe whe ever got a WS/CS price drop aside from events Seasons.

    Let me tell you guys a story about BMS (brazillian maplestory oficial server). We had hacking problems. People generated mesos by hack and RWT them. Inflation got so bad that ilbis were being sold for 1b or even 2b. This destroyed the game economy, and it may not be the only reason but certainly contributed to the server being shut down a few months after. (We didn't even got Horntail despite having Leafre!)

    I know its not the same situation because this would never happen in MapleLegends but its a warning, a story we should learn from. The inflation should be controlled, and i don't care about the methods. I care about economic health in long therm. I love grinding, but this is just too much for a perfect weapon.

    Sure, WS/CS doesn't need to be as cheap as it was in the beginning but we have a stale number of players online now (~800-1000? Not counting the mules of course), and WS/CS are becoming even more elite.
     
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  16. Jean Justen
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    Jean Justen Mushmom

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    Can this topic get a little more Love?
     
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  17. Estrahl
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    Estrahl Mr. Anchor

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    Man I remember when my friends were like, "Yo let's farm some drum bunnies for Chaos Scrolls it'll be so profitable!" And then we spent 3 hours in Eos Tower and got maybe 1 scroll OnionPuke
     
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  18. zeroxlr
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    zeroxlr Windraider

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    Same!

    All this inflation could be fixed by allowing for these scrolls to be dropped by original mobs.

    5614A77B-652C-4C25-BCAA-E62442DB4CDB.jpeg ABFF586F-D914-4F0E-B6B3-730ED2EFC59F.jpeg

    Either that… or add more raid/area bosses that also drop P_Coins to generate more in circulation.
     
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  19. Ainz
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    Ainz Zakum

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    Not every thread is a personal request for you to showcase your multimage development, start a journal.
     
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  20. Dulce
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    Dulce Brown Teddy

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    MapleLegends Pcoin Goal
    - Create a better wealth distribution / spread by adding the pcoins
    - Promote Bossing
    - Demote Multimaging
    - Demote Leechselling? (i remember that Kimberly did not like the leechselling meta either, same for me)

    The idea was good of adding coins to like smaller bosses, so not only end game players are able to farm for WS/CS. Bossing was promoted aswell, but the problem stays the power of multimage farming. The market is very inflated, which causes the pcoin to become more expensive. This is not necessary a bad thing, since bossing becomes more valuable if the pcoin price goes up. The thing is that with the pcoin going up the value of gach is going up aswell (ws,cs reward ofcourse) which might keep multimage in check, but i'll come back on this issue in a bit.

    Current given solution by most people
    - Create a meso sink that's directly related to pcoins, whether increasing the mesos fee or adding the pcoin in the NPC store to buy at a fixed rate or even both options.

    I think this will give the wrong reaction, since currently multimagers are atleast distributing their mesos to other people getting pcoins on their way.
    If you make it NPC transaction only, people will look for the best way to make mesos and like ovv said multimage with 28m/h (WITHOUT GACH) is the king of farming mesos.
    So you will promote multimaging or even leechselling, unless these get hard nerfed.

    True solution
    - Find a way to make multimagers (and high level leechsellers?) make a significant lower amount of mesos.

    My solution
    - Take out gachapon drop from AOE skills (Gen,Blizz,Meteor,Air Strike,Dragon Roar) completly.

    Like akash said: 'at current prices, coin farming is not faster than farming gach for ws/cs, at least for those with multimage setups.'
    If you completly shutdown the possibility to get pcoins from leechselling , multimage farming, you might promote bossing alot more with this alternative.

    Problems remaining / created
    - The supply of gach rewards will be significant lower
    - The supply of pcoins will be lowered (less CS,WS pulls)
    - The market is still very inflated

    Solution to these problems
    - There are plans of adding gach scrolls to mob drops
    - Boost pouchdroprate from bosses by 5% (or any rate you think will fix it), so you can fill the gap of lower amount of ws,cs pulled from gach by taking out gach drop from ults.
    - promoting PQ by adding pcoins as random reward in these PQ (so you also boost the supply of pcoin with this)
    - Honestly maybe even boost the gach droprate by single attacking mobs to compensate

    To counter the market inflation you could add alot small mesos sink that apply to all users, since the mesos should be more distributed with the pcoin system.
    - % based pots more expensive by like 500 mesos
    - PB marble of chaos 1m cost per craft (since pretty sure all multimages also PB)
    - maybe same for HT pot?
    (im pretty sure we can make a small mesos sink list together, but filling the mesos sink list here is not the point for me)

    At the end of the day i think the system is not bad, it's just that the market is very inflated by the magefarming strats and to counter that it will need a nerf.
     
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