Skill changes proposal ;D

Hey Noctua!

One of the issues not addressed here is the concept of "class identity".

I'd worry that these changes would remove the mechanics that make end-game mages unique. Given these changes, mages become another attacker class. Sure, it may balance classes by making them more similar, but that might not always be a good thing.

 

Probably should swap thunder spear and chain lightning since thunder spear is a 3rd job skill

 

With these changes, at what point do mages become viable attackers? What benchmarks are we comparing to?

 

I think they should recolor chain lighting yellow

 

they already are, especially when elemental weakness comes to play (or pb body)

this post is more about farming, but look under the hood and shadowers are actually a very close 2nd when it comes to it. can be seen as a request for self buff ;D

 

As far as i have seen leeching is such an integrated part of how people build their character here, that removing these mobbing skills will have a huge negative impact on the game, might also feel unfair to people who have been able to benefit from this before the mage ult skills basicly lose all characteristics and feel more like 2nd job mobbing skills (apart from the range).

I do think it would be cool to have a strong single target attacking mage class tho, but even a completely reworked f/p mage skillbook would feel more natural to maplestory then mages not having their ultimates.

 

In an attempt to strip every class of identity just because you personally don't multiclient you would single handedly kill the server based off your opinion.

Considering you barely play, and to my knowledge don't have any mages I don't see how these nerfs would help or change your player experience whatsoever other than seeing everyone around you get nerfed.

 

I miss when people would threaten to quit if they didn’t get their way. These posts lack conviction.

 

Sometimes people post suggestions to better the overall experience instead of just trying to get a personal benefit. It's crazy I know.

 

why

 

Some people make suggestions based on malice aswell

 

I wish suggestions were honest and just went with advocating for deleting all mages and DKs instead of the usual mega nerf.

 

Mages already got their bossing-viable buff over the last couple of patches, and buffed their farming ability as well with the drop-rate nerf being removed for non-ults (farming with fire/ice demon is pretty good now in maps where ults can't reach their full potential). I think mages are in a good spot right now, but if you want to suggest nerfing multi-maging further there are ways to do so without completely upending their class identity

 

When I look at it, the issue with the design of mage ults tends to be that it is almost always the best option. The best range, best damage, best target count. The "balancing" mechanic to not just spamming the skills were in their high mp costs, which became fairly irrelevant even in the main game let alone once washing is added to the mix.

When the map clearing button is always the go-to and is noteworthy in its low action count from the player, its little wonder that placing as many of them as possible becomes the norm. Many of the changes this server has seen has been in direct or indirect response to this scalability including but not limited to: changing mob placements/spawn times, increasing the global cost of potions, preventing looting large meso piles, implementing skill-based drop rates. Yet historically, we've chosen to warp the entire server around these and other unhealthy presences, for the sake of... nostalgia?

Many of the arguments standing in the way of addressing ultimates are less powerful today than they used to be. With HP challenges and PQ rework supposedly on the horizon, players aren't as dependent on leech to get a playable character leveled, and those who are should have a real "challenge" to level a character without actually using the character.

Mage in bossing is also an argument in favor of big ult. Mage bossing is much better than it used to be, and it's possibly not even the worst class to boss anymore. Some mage bossing is tied to the ult, but that identity can also be maintained, personally. I do believe we are poised better than ever to bring mages into bossing.

The reality is though, there are limits to what can be done. Even if we simply tone down the ultimate's raw damage, theyd still be useful for multiclient farming, as evidenced by roar. Depending on the numbers, we'd still see multimages and leechers, just at lower level maps, or with more gear/levels/clients. That highlights the map design/player interaction issue more though (ult charge button when?). We'll never be able to fully tackle leech as long as sharing exp is a thing, so viewing it as a way to remove leech is fruitless. We can however revamp the experience to not make leech the overall best and typical experience.

Summary: I don't think we're quite there yet to just hit ultimates and call it a day, and I think there's plenty of other non-mage problems, but here's some things I would keep on the burner for when the time comes:

All mages:
*reduce ultimate damage on mobs, apply +% damage to bosses (ideally, this should preserve much of bishop/mage identity in things like ht-wyverns or bean clearing)
*bonus points: give it a charge bar like bb (this one may be impactful enough on its own)
Archmage:
*Raise damage (and possibly range) of ice/fire demon, remove neutralization of ice/fire, respectively (maintain a mobs weakness to ice/fire if they previously had it). Ideally these should be strong enough to be a go-to skill for cleaving mobs or bosses before ults, as well as for ice/fire weaknesses.
Bishop:
*give angel ray an iron arrow type effect for a minor mobbing option outside of gen. It's still a single target skill on a class with a mainly supportive kit, but the next option is angel ray

 

I love threads like this! They challenge us to think about the systems behind the game.

The original post clearly explains a potential "how", but addresses on a variety of different "why"s.

Raso - The better question might be, "what's the desired outcome?"

For example:

> The desired outcome of these changes is to close the income disparity gap between different farming techniques.

If that's the case, the best solution might be to instead increase the EV of bosses that require active participation. Often times, a simple solution is safer for the long term health of a server. In the case of the original proposal, it changes quite a few aspects of the game, the meta, and the play styles at once, which should it be implemented, would be quite the feat of game balance.

 

in actuality the gap between bossing and leeching/farming has already largely been arbitraged away

 

True! I believe that the server is in a really healthy place. Especially in the balance between farming and bossing.

I think the relative EVs are closer than they ever have been.

I think it's difficult to compare relative EVs when certain methods have a much great upfront cost and investment... how do you measure what's "fair" when there are different upfront/investment costs.

It's going to take me at least 200 hours of playtime before I break even on the time spent leveling, gearing, and planning multi-mages... compared to if I had spent that same time bossing and collecting coins.