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Skill changes proposal ;D

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Raso, Jan 30, 2024.

  1. Raso
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    Raso Slimy Retired Staff

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    Ok, before anyone says it, yes I know I'm bad at making suggestions, that's why the title is weird too :^) I tried my bestest Foxpat

    Hello everyone! I propose the following changes to (hopefully) improve the balance of this server.

    -Rework attack skills that hit more than 6 targets
    -Improve mages viability in bossing


    Its to no-ones surprise that the skills hitting more than 6 targets are (ab)used for multiclient farming, which then has negative effects on the economy. Apart from that argument, there's plenty of people that simply dislike that form of playing for various reasons, but that isn't part of this suggestion :) The skills this would apply to are Genesis, Blizzard, Meteor shower and Roar. Heavens hammer is not part of this suggestion as it has a relatively high cooldown, does not kill mobs by itself and is not as commonly abused (for as far as I'm aware...).

    Id propose a rework of these skills, to reduce their number of targets to max 6, and increase damage where needed. This would reduce the impact of multiclient farmers (mages AND DKs) on the economy, with the downside of perhaps increasing the clients that these farmers need to use to keep up their profits. Downsides for "normal" players would be "less effective" mobbing (tho arguably that's not a major issue for these classes) and less crowd control in CWK (for DKs). Leeching would also suffer for obvious reasons, but with HP challenges coming out the suffering of (extreme) washers is something that shouldn't be an argument in balancing changes. The pro's for "normal" players would be a more useful class (for those who do not want to excel in staring at the same map indefinitely slaving away for someone else) and a more stable economy.

    For the mages, this proposal would have the largest impact. That is why my suggestion includes improving mages to be viable in bossing. Doing this makes them less "specialized" in farming and mobbing, and more on par with the other classes in content. I am aware some people consider the farming part as the identity of mages, but I believe mages deserve better. I'm also aware that some mageplayers are already bossers (and good at it), but this is to improve the situation for all current and future mage players. But nostalgia! Please, there's been enough changes by now to not complain about that.

    Now I am not a mage player, so take these following things with a grain of salt. If staff dares to do something with this suggestion post, Id trust BT to come up with balanced numbers :pinkbean:

    Suggested skill changes:
    -Roar: Reduce targets to 6, increase damage slightly. (DKs do already have good mobbing skills, this change would keep its use for zerking intact)
    -Blizzard/Meteor shower/Genesis: Reduce targets to 6
    -Fire/Ice Demon: Increase damage and cast speed
    -Explosion/Chain Lightning/Big Bang: Increase damage and cast speed
    -Paralyze/Thunder spear/Angel ray: Increase damage significantly

    With these changes, mages would still be good mobbers but have to generally put more effort into it. In exchange, they would be viable attackers in content and be more accepted (magic cancels finally having a use?!?!?).


    Thank you for reading my wall of text :heartbeat: Im not a very frequent forum dweller so don't expect quick responses to replies MapleF12
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 13
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  2. Krythan
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    Krythan Wolfspider

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    Hey Noctua!

    One of the issues not addressed here is the concept of "class identity".

    I'd worry that these changes would remove the mechanics that make end-game mages unique. Given these changes, mages become another attacker class. Sure, it may balance classes by making them more similar, but that might not always be a good thing.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2024
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  3. fartsy
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    fartsy Skelosaurus

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  4. Nightz
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    Nightz Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    Moderator Post
    Could you elaborate on why you picked the following skills with these specific changes?
     
  5. Mageor
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    Mageor Mr. Anchor

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    Probably should swap thunder spear and chain lightning since thunder spear is a 3rd job skill
     
  6. Mageor
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    Mageor Mr. Anchor

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    With these changes, at what point do mages become viable attackers? What benchmarks are we comparing to?
     
  7. Edann
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    Edann Slimy Retired Staff

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    I think they should recolor chain lighting yellow
     
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  8. fartsy
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    fartsy Skelosaurus

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    they already are, especially when elemental weakness comes to play (or pb body)

    this post is more about farming, but look under the hood and shadowers are actually a very close 2nd when it comes to it. can be seen as a request for self buff ;D
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  9. Randombish
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    Randombish Slime

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    As far as i have seen leeching is such an integrated part of how people build their character here, that removing these mobbing skills will have a huge negative impact on the game, might also feel unfair to people who have been able to benefit from this before the mage ult skills basicly lose all characteristics and feel more like 2nd job mobbing skills (apart from the range).

    I do think it would be cool to have a strong single target attacking mage class tho, but even a completely reworked f/p mage skillbook would feel more natural to maplestory then mages not having their ultimates.
     
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  10. Subterlabor
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    Subterlabor Wolfspider

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    In an attempt to strip every class of identity just because you personally don't multiclient you would single handedly kill the server based off your opinion.

    Considering you barely play, and to my knowledge don't have any mages I don't see how these nerfs would help or change your player experience whatsoever other than seeing everyone around you get nerfed.
     
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  11. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    I miss when people would threaten to quit if they didn’t get their way. These posts lack conviction.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2024
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  12. Soblet
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    Soblet Zakum

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    Sometimes people post suggestions to better the overall experience instead of just trying to get a personal benefit. It's crazy I know.
     
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  13. Karn
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    Karn Mixed Golem

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    why
     
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  14. Subterlabor
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    Subterlabor Wolfspider

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    Some people make suggestions based on malice aswell
     
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  15. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

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    I wish suggestions were honest and just went with advocating for deleting all mages and DKs instead of the usual mega nerf.
     
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  16. DrJason
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    DrJason Windraider

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    Mages already got their bossing-viable buff over the last couple of patches, and buffed their farming ability as well with the drop-rate nerf being removed for non-ults (farming with fire/ice demon is pretty good now in maps where ults can't reach their full potential). I think mages are in a good spot right now, but if you want to suggest nerfing multi-maging further there are ways to do so without completely upending their class identity
     
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  17. iPippy
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    iPippy Nightshadow

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    When I look at it, the issue with the design of mage ults tends to be that it is almost always the best option. The best range, best damage, best target count. The "balancing" mechanic to not just spamming the skills were in their high mp costs, which became fairly irrelevant even in the main game let alone once washing is added to the mix.

    When the map clearing button is always the go-to and is noteworthy in its low action count from the player, its little wonder that placing as many of them as possible becomes the norm. Many of the changes this server has seen has been in direct or indirect response to this scalability including but not limited to: changing mob placements/spawn times, increasing the global cost of potions, preventing looting large meso piles, implementing skill-based drop rates. Yet historically, we've chosen to warp the entire server around these and other unhealthy presences, for the sake of... nostalgia?

    Many of the arguments standing in the way of addressing ultimates are less powerful today than they used to be. With HP challenges and PQ rework supposedly on the horizon, players aren't as dependent on leech to get a playable character leveled, and those who are should have a real "challenge" to level a character without actually using the character.

    Mage in bossing is also an argument in favor of big ult. Mage bossing is much better than it used to be, and it's possibly not even the worst class to boss anymore. Some mage bossing is tied to the ult, but that identity can also be maintained, personally. I do believe we are poised better than ever to bring mages into bossing.

    The reality is though, there are limits to what can be done. Even if we simply tone down the ultimate's raw damage, theyd still be useful for multiclient farming, as evidenced by roar. Depending on the numbers, we'd still see multimages and leechers, just at lower level maps, or with more gear/levels/clients. That highlights the map design/player interaction issue more though (ult charge button when?). We'll never be able to fully tackle leech as long as sharing exp is a thing, so viewing it as a way to remove leech is fruitless. We can however revamp the experience to not make leech the overall best and typical experience.

    Summary: I don't think we're quite there yet to just hit ultimates and call it a day, and I think there's plenty of other non-mage problems, but here's some things I would keep on the burner for when the time comes:

    All mages:
    *reduce ultimate damage on mobs, apply +% damage to bosses (ideally, this should preserve much of bishop/mage identity in things like ht-wyverns or bean clearing)
    *bonus points: give it a charge bar like bb (this one may be impactful enough on its own)
    Archmage:
    *Raise damage (and possibly range) of ice/fire demon, remove neutralization of ice/fire, respectively (maintain a mobs weakness to ice/fire if they previously had it). Ideally these should be strong enough to be a go-to skill for cleaving mobs or bosses before ults, as well as for ice/fire weaknesses.
    Bishop:
    *give angel ray an iron arrow type effect for a minor mobbing option outside of gen. It's still a single target skill on a class with a mainly supportive kit, but the next option is angel ray :confused:
     
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  18. Krythan
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    Krythan Wolfspider

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    I love threads like this! They challenge us to think about the systems behind the game.

    The original post clearly explains a potential "how", but addresses on a variety of different "why"s.

    RasoRaso - The better question might be, "what's the desired outcome?"

    For example:

    > The desired outcome of these changes is to close the income disparity gap between different farming techniques.

    If that's the case, the best solution might be to instead increase the EV of bosses that require active participation. Often times, a simple solution is safer for the long term health of a server. In the case of the original proposal, it changes quite a few aspects of the game, the meta, and the play styles at once, which should it be implemented, would be quite the feat of game balance.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2024
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  19. fartsy
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    fartsy Skelosaurus

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    in actuality the gap between bossing and leeching/farming has already largely been arbitraged away
     
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  20. Krythan
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    Krythan Wolfspider

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    True! I believe that the server is in a really healthy place. Especially in the balance between farming and bossing.

    I think the relative EVs are closer than they ever have been.

    I think it's difficult to compare relative EVs when certain methods have a much great upfront cost and investment... how do you measure what's "fair" when there are different upfront/investment costs.

    It's going to take me at least 200 hours of playtime before I break even on the time spent leveling, gearing, and planning multi-mages... compared to if I had spent that same time bossing and collecting coins.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2024
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