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nerf multi client: only white-ing character to loot meso/items

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Tommygunner, Dec 7, 2023.

  1. Tommygunner
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    Tommygunner Mixed Golem

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    7:16 AM
    If we want to nerf multi-client farming, we should consider allowing meso/items to be looted only by the character that whites the mob.

    Most multi-client farming set-up has a sweeper mule so that the farmers don't have to move, which is important when using multiple clients. This change would not affect single client farmers at all, but multi-client full-map-attack(FMA) farming would be nerfed heavily and would have to farm for valuable items and gach rather than farming pure meso, in order to reduce farmer moving time.

    I think certain items maybe should be white-listed however, for example quest-related untradeable items, so to allow people to help each other out during quests (for example NTPQ, skin for HT elixir, etc). As for nx and cards, people seem to have different opinions; i personally think it's ok for people to be selling nx/card services (gives people more ways to sell services other than just leech) but if we feel those things are not healthy for the server they can be included as well (though given that nx/card services have been allowed to exist until now, i don't see balance team wanting it gone now)

    non-FMA multi-client farming will be less affected by this change, such as multi-shads. However, that can be adjusted by changing pickpocket dmg:meso ratio. Another option is to reduce pet-loot range, or not allowing pet to move while in b-step.

    Pros:
    1) single client farmer not affected at all
    2) reduced inflation due to no sweeper mule; harder to collect meso
    3) encourages farming items/scrolls rather than meso, promoting healthier free market
    4) leech not affected (and card/nx services not affected depending what we decide on)
    5)

    Cons:
    1) less options for people to try-hard multi-farm (though certain spots for scrolls+gach is still very profitable, given that it still scales linearly to however as many client one wants)
    2) kinda custom?
    3) might be a lot of work to white-list all the untradeable quest items?
    4)

    This would certainly be a big change, and we should consider potential effects carefully (and i'm sorry to all my friends that multi-client farm)
     
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  2. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Skelosaurus

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    Multishad probably wouldn’t care much about a pickpocket nerf honestly. It would hurt regular players more I’d imagine. The thing that would hurt the most is gacha drop nerfs.

    Most multifarming strategies already revolve around gacha and high value items like scrolls rather than mesos anyways.

    We’ve seen a lot of proxy nerfs like the proposed suggestion but none of them have truly eliminated multifarming, and none of them ever will until the actual source is directly addressed which is gacha. Eventually things will progress to a point where you have like 20 level 40 IL mages spamming rank 1 thunderbolt with max mp eater against snails in pp2 or hhg self sweeping gacha. There’s no limit to workarounds as long as gacha is still being generated.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2023
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  3. zqin1
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    zqin1 King Slime

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    sounds so numb and a good non-thinking question maker
     
  4. xiaoyaoz
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    xiaoyaoz Balance Team Staff Member Balance Team

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    12:16 PM
    As a note, OP suggestion is already the case for meso, but only for >1k meso, i.e. the big meso bags.
    Do remember that this suggestion was previously implemented for all mesos but had a huge backlash due to the ruining of party play and having annoying visual clutter in map. One of the many detrimental example back then was PPQ.
    What OP is suggesting is an even strictier situation, inclusive of items also.
    Not saying I'm for or against this suggestion, but is the benefit strong enough to justify the backlash?

    EDIT: Adding the 19 pages thread on the sweeping changes as reference here.
    https://forum.maplelegends.com/index.php?threads/discussion-on-balance-changes-to-sweeping.40842/
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2023
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  5. OP
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    Tommygunner
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    Tommygunner Mixed Golem

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    7:16 AM
    As for PPQ that's why i suggested excluding quest items. ah but PPQ items are tradeable. hmm then maybe excluding all PQ items? i feel like is PPQ was the problem that could've been fixed separately along with other quest items.

    visual clutter....like the leechers that don't loot their meso/items? and ruining party play....hmmm i can see how it's a little annoying, but people grinding together will either stay in their own spot ANYWAY or move around the map so that each will be able to pick up their item/meso. and the visual clutter in this 30 second it takes to move around the map is that important? Maybe im not seeing the bigger picture here o.o

    Actually, now that i think more about it, the item part doesn't even matter. not being able to pick up meso itself is already big enough nerf to sweeper mules.
     
  6. UnknownCode
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    UnknownCode Nightshadow

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    Great idea, lets have people purchase zhelm/htp service only to not be able to loot their equip or skill book(10)s
     
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  7. WackyWarlock
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    WackyWarlock Stone Golem

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    How about removing multi client all together? :)
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  8. Milkydoor
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    Milkydoor Pink Teddy

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    12:16 PM
    I see there's a new thread for this. I imagine this has already been discussed in detail in previous threads, so I would suggest actually experiencing this for yourself to feel the inconvenience.

    From my memory, pets will still try to loot items they're not allowed to, which slows down looting and makes them run around confused.

    Depending on your rotations, you won't be able to easily clean up the entire map together (and this would make you less efficient anyway), and if there's any overlap, you can't tell how much of a pile of mesos/items belongs to you or your partner(s).

    I worry that this is once again speaking for the casual experience and telling them to just get over it. I definitely still hear complaints about the meso looting change and the NLC pot change "tax for the casuals". My sweatiest friends never complain, ironically.
     
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  9. OP
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    Tommygunner
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    Tommygunner Mixed Golem

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    yes that's a valid concern! thats why i said mobs not bosses :)
     
  10. OP
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    Tommygunner
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    Tommygunner Mixed Golem

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    interesting, thanks for feedback! i wonder if pets could be changed so they dont try to pick up stuff that they cant. maybe thats too hard x.x sadge
     
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  11. fartsy
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    fartsy Skelosaurus

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    Gotta think of all the ways things can be used & abused. I think it's a broad view multivoting was the worst thing that happened to ML balance in the life of the server, yet we all seem to benefit from it. NX dropping from mobs isn't a solution either since we just move from producing something like, 5x 30k hp NL to 1-2 30k/30k NL + hyperwashed mages

    When it comes to balancing, the approach should include no carveouts unless it's absolutely necessary for new players. Cards and NX shouldn't be exempt.
     
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  12. Tarnished
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    Tarnished Mixed Golem

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    IMO the solution to multiclienting is not nerfs. There’s too much collateral damage to single client players every time a nerf happens, and in the end multi-clienting still makes more

    I would rather see more viable farming options added for single clienting that come close to the EV of multi-farming. Multi-clients are weak to high APM tasks, especially high movement areas like the CWK exchange which you can’t efficiently loot mule, or high risk areas like Auf. The downside is non-mobile classes are also weak to movement
     
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  13. fartsy
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    fartsy Skelosaurus

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    there already exists some, including sc20, leathers, and some maps for shadowers
     
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  14. Ainz
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    Ainz Zakum

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    I think you already briefly touched upon this in your post, but it seems super hard to me to come up with a viable singleclient spot that isn't equally viable to multiclient.
    High HP mobs? See 5-6F
    High movement? There's definitely multiple players around here that are proficient enough at multiclienting to work around this.
    Unless you go the route of one of our previous events (where you were only allowed to enter map x with 1 IP), you're going to be facing very difficult balancing decisions. Even if you do go this route, more pcs = more profit.
     
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  15. Tarnished
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    Tarnished Mixed Golem

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    Realistically I think single-client 'farm' areas would have to be difficult, active gameplay bosses with mechanics that require a broad range of classes and will heavily punish mistakes in order to justify a high EV

    The trouble with a lot of farming maps is they heavily favor range and mobility. IMO CWK exchange is the least multi-client abuseable area, I feel like it would be hard even for the most proficient multi-farmer to do this because of how treacherous the terrain is. In its current state though, the rewards are too inconsistent and afaik only a few classes can farm it efficiently. The interesting concept about CWK though is that it requires you to loot multiple untradeable ETCs, so in theory it could be changed so that farming each of the 5 pieces of Exodia favors a different class archetype and only the whiter can pick them up. Then I think it could be tuned so the overall EV is somewhat similar for everyone.

    I don't know much about Shads, I've heard they can get over 30m/hr at ToT which sounds nutty - but again it's class limited which I think is a no-go if the goal is to boost single client players who would likely want to play their main. And the trouble with leathers/sc2 is that if they're anything like imperial guard shields, crimson hearts, or iruvata lasers then your EV will plummet as soon as the market is saturated. For crimson hearts I've had them sell for as high as 30k ea, but if I farm them for even a couple hours it quickly becomes hard to sell for 10k. The demand is very shallow, unlike for scrolls.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2023
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  16. fartsy
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    fartsy Skelosaurus

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    hero classes can farm our sympathy
     
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  17. iPippy
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    iPippy Nightshadow

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    It's a good thing we've got the APM reducing machines that are pets then. I simply don't see how one can design "high APM tasks" that aren't downright miserable when the game will automatically do everything except walk and buff/attack for us. Possibly providing more APM than the player themselves. And even then, the existence of few high value items such as gach carrying a majority of traditional farming value would likely be slightly inconvenienced due to really only needing to loot the equips/gach/scrolls.
     
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  18. bienfu
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    bienfu Pac Pinky

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    Buffed ToT monsters that cast seal and buffed PoT drop rates and buffed mesos loot in Oblivion and Road of Regrets is my idea.
     
  19. Krythan
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    Krythan Wolfspider

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    100% Agreed. The way to "solve" multi-clienting is with interesting and rewarding end-game content. From a game design perspective, the rewards from an activity should incentivize the activity that the game designers wish players to pursue. Ideally, this activity is chosen based on "fun".
     
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  20. Tarnished
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    Tarnished Mixed Golem

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    Yeah the suffering would be unavoidable - the misery has to be intense enough that 2x the misery is at the limit of human endurance and 4x the misery would be impossible.

    IMO player tolerance for suffering is much higher when they can suffer together in a social activity so I suspect there's a bit of leeway to work with
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2023
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