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Why sairs so unpopular?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Eris, Jul 27, 2020.

  1. Eris
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    Eris Horny Mushroom

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    They have good mobility, good dmg, they look cool, dont need much fund because their equips and scrolls cheap, and ppl still prefer NL or other classes rather then sair.
    Sair have the highest potintial dmg on paper, they are the 3rd most fast class after mages and NL, why they still unpopular?
     
  2. kalash
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    kalash Headless Horseman

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    Because dmg on paper means nothing. Most people choose their job either for grinding or bossing, neither are good for a sair. In bosses you will have to dismount your ship every strong attack to keep it from breaking, lowering your dpm immensely since you get hit with everything. NLs are basically holding one button and stay in position without getting hit every second. Therefore they can keep attacking and have higher net dpm while doing less effort. And don't get me started on Corsair grinding.
     
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  3. Selquin
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    Selquin Headless Horseman

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    Once you see the #1 corsair, $maple akash, you will see that the elegance of his gameplay is an otherworldly fusion of beauty and sweat which cannot possibly be imitated by mortals like yourself. Once you realize this, you will be disgusted by your own control and damage, a disgusting mimicry of the awe inspiring mastery you have just witnessed. Rather than diluting the corsair playerbase with your untalented self, you solemnly acknowledge the limits of your abilities and make a NL instead.
     
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  4. KurayamiLove
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    KurayamiLove Skelegon

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    NL does better at bossing in general and u need far less braincells. In modern Maple the strongest jobs are pretty hard to play and need a lot of optimization, yet they are not that popular, ppl ofetn jaust rathe use an easier job with ok performance anyways, same here.
     
  5. Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    SAIRRSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!! Lemme help you out here, don't get your vision clouded by fake news. There are a number of problems with sairs and it's not what everyone honestly thinks.

    1. Conceded - Damage on paper means nothing. The theoretical vs realistic DPM for sairs are definitely not in line, seeing that you have to dismount and remount.
    2. We're OKAY at grinding, probably better than NLs tbh cus you don't have to jump around everywhere and you can hit things melee range with Torpedo. Just every like 10ish minutes, you'd have to take 90 second break cus you're on rapid fire.
    3. We're definitely GOOD at bossing, don't let anyone tell you otherwise xD sure, we don't have an easy time like a NL just pressing down one button and falling asleep at it. Yes, you have to dismount/remount, but that's exactly why the theoretical damage is supposed to be much higher than other classes. So that when you do dismount/remount, you can still compete with other classes. There are some bosses that we are just better at since we don't have to dismount at all for them pretty much Scar B1, B2, Nibergen, CWKPQ mage boss.
      • You WILL still white archers and melee classes with similar gearing.
      • You CAN white NLs even, so long as it isn't Horntail main body where you might struggle to climb ropes. I consistently white HT prehead 2 even with a number of NLs one the same run as me. Zakum isn't too hard once you learn the animations either.
    4. All other classes will have a MUCH easier time than you. Dozing off for a while means you will lose DPM, and your ship WILL break. At the same time, doing things perfectly will lead you to output sick amounts of damage. If you like getting better, and I don't mean gear wise, but I mean actual PLAY and mechanic wise, Sair is a very rewarding class to play. Seeing how your perfect dismount/remount and management of octopi/etcetc improve your damage by a couple mil sometimes, are all indicators of you getting better + by how much.
    5. MOST IMPORTANT IMO FOR BOSSING, you are a flexible snowflake. NLs beg for SE and refuse to go on runs cus they feel useless. Sair? You can fit ANYWHERE. Cleave party with SI. SE or SI DC? Other classes cry. You? You still plough through like the ship captain you are. Then you have runs where you have a SE+SI. Oh boy. That damage is fucking amazing.
    So Sair sounds pretty good huh? That's not the full story though. There are a few major reasons why Sairs aren't considered good, which are:
    1. 1st to 3rd job suck ass LOL mobility is NOTHING like flash jump, you get no supportive skills like MU or haste
    2. Sairs have a number of glitches associated with them that makes the gameplay feel lackluster. You can play around it, but being glitched is no fun.
      • Sitting bug, where you dismount in the middle of an attack animation, you're stuck sitting and can't move (sucks at verga, cus your head is popping out of the water)
      • Interrupted remount, remounting at the same time as getting attacked doesn't remount you sometimes
      • Can't attack??? I don't know how and when this happens, but sometimes you just can't use any skills. Sort of like mini snipe bug. You just gotta run around for a bit trying to use any attacks and it suddenly works.
      • Wrath of octopi not actually stacking multiple times (pretty minor-ish, but can be major if you know how to make the most use of it)
    3. No party skills (duh). You are by definition a selfish class. You give nothing, but you take everything. You're that kid that has no standards. You'll attack with no buffs, SE, or SI, or all of them. It's good for you, but bad for the party *shrug*
    4. No utility built into your kit. NLs and Bowmen have avoidability built in somewhere. Warriors have stance. Buccaneers have pseudo-stance. You know what Neckson gave us? +100 weapon defense & magic defense on our boat. SIR?! We're told to not be on our boat for THICC damage, but you give us defense there?! Also 100 def is really minor in the larger scheme of things. You eat tons of pots, get knocked around a lot.
    If you can bear thru these cons and play the class for the derpiness it is (recoil shot+wings is the definition of derp btw), it's honestly a decent class. It has lots of fun and a rewarding feeling for the time invested in playing the class~ Hope that gives you a better understanding!
     
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  6. xadra
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    xadra Windraider

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    One reason is that they are extremely painful to grind through 3rd job without leeching. All while taking more effort to play than most other classes to get DPM. From what I've learnt about Maplers over the years, overwhelming majority want to be able to play without needing to pay attention to the screen at all if possible.
     
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  7. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    I pretty much agree with what NiseNise said, and I really hope that some of the corsair glitches get fixed. They are really annoying to deal with! I will, however, expand on his point where other classes have an easier time than you.

    One reason that corsair's are not popular is that that have very low floors and high ceilings. In the hands of a casual player (which is the probably the majority of maplelegends userbase), corsairs underperform nightlords (and probably most other classes too) by a significant margin.

    They take insane investment to truly shine, you need to fund it (which is difficult because you need to scroll a lot of your own gear), get very high level (for the extra boat HP / avoid from dex), learn how to control properly (takes a lot of practice) WHILE hp washing an insane amount to make up for your low avoid / overall survivability.

    Corsair's hp wash is also harder because you have the worst MP to HP conversion ratio of all attacker classes.

    Ultimately for the average player, they will end up putting in a lot more effort to play corsair than any other class and probably quit before they see the benefits from their struggles. It's quite comical the number of dead corsairs we have in the 155-160 range that quit once they realize how hard HT is.

    I will tell you, however, that if you keep going onward to high level and learn to play properly, you will outperform every single class (with similar funding) at single target DPS except NL at HT. And even then, the difference between you and the NL won't even be that large.
     
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  8. yogurtseller
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    yogurtseller Mixed Golem

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    Sairs arent so bad at horntail as much as everyone memes it to be. All you need is a perfect gun, an unlimited stopper supply, a 25+ LUK overall, 25+ avoid shoes, a HH mule, a DEX bucc and 16 slots of bullets. Honestly dont know why corsairs arent played more
     
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  9. PandaOnPanda
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    PandaOnPanda Timer

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    Agree with all points already said (especially the hell that is washing a sair. 2.5m NX and I'll only get 13k hp. plz kimmy make it -14 mp instead of -16 per wash :( )

    I will add a good thing about sairs is air strike (4th job skill) makes it so easy to farm cards, events, or anything really. Getting tier 10 ring on a sair is much easier than on a NL or BM.
    IMO sairs are one of the better grinding classes (disregarding mages of course) with air strike/torpedo and good mobility
     
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  10. Romel
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    Romel Stone Golem

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    Why not change those +100 def of the ship to 100 Avoid, it would not be a direct increase in attack to the corsair but something that helps the veterans while dismounting and reassembling the ship to not lose their posture
     
  11. Krythan
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    Krythan Skelegon

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    Nostalgia

    It's the nostalgia that brought many players to this v62 server. Many players, including myself, played in a time before the pirate classes were added. If it's nostalgia that brings you back to the game, players are going to lean towards what they remember from the past. And some came from a past that didn't have Corsairs or Buccaneers, making them relatively less popular compared to Night Lords, Dragon Knights, and more.
     
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  12. Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    Food for thought, not sure how people actually feel but, would adding avoid to sairs not just feel like you're eroding the class identities of NLs and Corsairs? Avoid has historically been a very thief themed stat, with a lot of the NL/Shad kit being based around it (eg. shadow shifter). While it would of course be "less annoying" to pilot with it, would it be worth ruining the "class fantasy" of a corsair/pirate.

    (the power level issues if we were to do that is also another huge thing to consider ofc, but wanted to bring up the question from a thematic / lore-wise / class fantasy perspective)
     
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  13. Jafel
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    Jafel Capt. Latanica

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    Lore wise Corsair are weak off ship and strong on ship. That seems mostly correctly done on ML, although the difference between sair and other high dpm (read: NL) seems negligible for the difference in skill required to reach the optimum dpm.
     
  14. TermiteLover
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    TermiteLover Pink Teddy

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    I'm not a corsair player, but keeping with the theme, wouldn't it make more sense to give them a passive thats sort of a hybrid between invincible and mesoguard. Ships are meant to be big F off things that are hard to destroy (hence why countries with the most powerful navies have been the most dominant). It seems like thats why ships were given a Wdef buff originally, but as the game loves it's 1/1s, it's rendered pretty useless. Idk what the balance numbers would be, but even say a static 20% reduction on all damage while on ship would have the same affect as just adding more avoid, so missing a dismount wouldnt be as punishing. It seems like sairs are in a weird spot, where its *almost* detrimental to wash to 30k, unlike every other class in the game
     
  15. Romel
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    Romel Stone Golem

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    100 avoid I don't think it makes much of a difference and I mean more for casual players or privateers who don't like to use avoid equips, currently my sair is well funded with overalls 30 luk shoes 30 avoid but I mean more for people who prefer to use overalls and/or dex or str shoes with str dex or att I don't think you will lose the corsair mechanics because they will still hit you but a little less and there is less chance of losing posture, my opinion is more than it would serve to maintain posture while maintaining the mechanic of taking out and saving the ship and if you can't +100 avoid changing it +30 or looking for a middle point I would think that avoiding speed and jumping to the ship will be increased instead of deff and magic def because they feel very slow when you move and you can't use ropes, it's just an opinion as a mortal sair I don't consider myself a god of that class but it is my favorite ranged class.
     
  16. LeonardoJF
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    LeonardoJF Horntail

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    Back in vanilla corsair arent so strong til 4th job, and 4th job you have mechanichs..

    Here in ML corsair is in a very good spot on strong class, but, have mechanichs, don't is a braindead class

    I think this both things explain the "non popularity"
     
  17. Siegfried
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    Siegfried Timer

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    It's interesting that you bring up "lore-wise". The way I think about it is Neckson already thought about this tie-in, and decided to give them WDEF/MDEF for that reason, instead of avoid. Testing & balancing though, I doubt they had time or bothered to later on (as we know, Cygnus Knights...).

    Since ML picks up MapleStory right at the point where V62 left off without introducing any new classes, we're given an opportunity to look at in detail & fix the balancing while keeping in mind this 5 class paradigm that Neckson abandoned. So, in keeping the "spirit" of the original game, by extension, we're also preserving the "lore" of the original conception and design of the characters from story to gameplay.

    Righty. Our job is to buff the crap out of boats (defensively) where we'd be able to tell, "woah, my ship looks and is strong as steel", because that's our expectation of warships in person as well.

    What could also be interesting is giving boats the ability to use Dash, and improving Dash so it becomes a passive skill, to alleviate the speed/jump issues. The UFO being able to use Dash gave me this idea, and well, it fits within the context of a boat, where it obviously has different speed settings!

    That said, Corsairs are absolutely a pain to level 1-4th job, plus a need to HP wash, and still requires you to learn a bunch of mechanics to perform as well as a NL which spams 1 button to win. It's an extreme investment to play, and that alone is enough to turn most people off.

    I'm sure the people who do persevere, are basically the same people who main Charge Blade in Monster Hunter. You love reading 300 page PDFs, admit it!
     
  18. Lin
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    Lin Headless Horseman

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    Are they unpopular?

     
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  19. Siegfried
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    Siegfried Timer

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    Just wanted to add: Bullet Time gives +20 avoid and +20 accuracy, so technically... avoid is part of the Corsair identity

    (Although, it seems like it may have been more for Buccaneers, since Energy Charge also gives +20 avoid and +20 accuracy)
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2023
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  20. mjk
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    mjk Timer

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    People forget that sairs dominate HT
     
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